Completely Frustrated

[goforette]

I knew that becoming a pet owner again.... would face challenges. I'm sure it's much like raising children - (although I don't have any yet) - maybe I shouldn't if I can't even raise puppies easily! So I've been consulting everyone - our families, friends - the forum - always in search of what to do, what not to do, what I'm doing right or wrong with these two. I'm having a day where I could feel like I could just sit in the middle of the floor and cry about it all. I feel like I take one step forward and two back - I haven't been devoting as much time to my business because I'm so busy dealing with the puppies. I worry constantly about them - Hollie is on day 4 of diaherea - I have no idea what's causing it. First she ate a slug, then my kitchen rug complete with rubber backing, I changed her food on her yesterday in order to get Brystal to eat (which of course has given them both diaherea now) but I figured as much - they tell you not to switch brands on a heartbeat - but I was so anxious and happy to see them both eating a complete meal - the first time since I've had them in 6 weeks - Brystal is now licking Hollie's face and ears as if Hollie isn't feeling well - although she acts okay - maybe sleepy at the moment but that could be natural. No matter where I turn the vet is telling me one thing - pet stores another - it's all conflicting and overwhelming. It's been nearly 4 years since I lost my last dog and it's taken me this long just to get over the grieving long enough to try it again - and now I'm wondering what I'm doing. I feel like I'm constantly bugging my family for assistance - and asking what would you do - is this normal - should I try this - I'm suprised they don't change the phone number on me! I have to be pestering them to pieces by now. Now I'm not sure what to do - they'll eat the new food - but it's giving them diaherea - or at least Brystal -since Hollie has had it a couple days. But if I mix it with the old Brystal will snub it. Someone told me to try a unsalted cracker - I truly have no idea what to do. I desperately want them to be healthy - but I feel like I just keep making the situation worse. Part of my problem is I've never done the puppy thing before - I've always done rescues - adult dogs are a totally different game and I feel like I'm failing. So what do I do - go back to the old food eventhough I have one that won't touch it - stick with the new since they're both enjoying it- and pray the diaherea works itself out? Go to the vet again?

[MikeC]

Goforette,

I think we've all shared your exact same feelings at one time or another. Duffy was my first Cairn (after years of having English Springer Spaniels) and it took a great deal of getting used to the Terrier ways. I will try to impart some wisdom (and I use the term loosely here) what I would do/have done in the same situation. You don't mention anywhere in your posts about seeing a vet. A pup that has had diarrhea for four days should be looked at. I would suggest that you take her in to be checked. Changing food all at once can cause issues and when I have changed food on my two, I mix the new food a little at a time with the old food so that their systems get used to it. If your pups are truly not eating anything, you may want to try a small amount of diced up chicken breast with a little cooked white rice mixed in. I did this with Duffy when he was a pup and once he started eating real well, I would mix the chicken mixture in with the puppy kibble until eventually he was eating only his kibble. Never be afraid to come to the Forum with questions. Most of us here are "seasoned" Cairn mom's and dad's and have no problem expending help, advice, a shoulder to cry on, whatever is necessary. I remember that when I was at my wit's end with my pups I would think, "Failure is not an option". It got me through and gave me the extra little boost that I needed. I hope this helps you.

Mike

[Hhoky]

Hang in there Goforette, I am sure at one time or another we have all been there. I do think you need to take her in to see a vet, its better to spend the money on a visit and be told everythings ok than to wait and then lose the pup because of something that could have been easily fixed. And, just like with kids, you never know what could be wrong, something simple like from changing food to a poison (slug maybe) to who knows what. After she is checked out if no meds are needed try giving her a bit (a tablespoon or two ) of yogurt. I do this with Izbell anytime she eats something that gives here diarrea, it help replace the good bacteria they lose from being ill. Izbell also likes oatmeal with fruit (weird I know, but she really likes bananas) in it when she's not feeling well (its easy to digest and helps firm up the stools too) But check her out first, you dont want to make it worse, after all it could be a food allergy.And hey dont worry your not "Failing" your learning! If you wern't worried and trying to help at all, well that would be faliure, and a shame. Work with your vet and you'll be A OK.

P.S. Remember everyone has an opinion and a 'trick' that worked for them, and it can get confusing or frustrating trying to decide which one is best for you and your pup, but your vets opinion is based on lots of medicical knowledge and history, And to me thats comforting to know.

[Scully'sMom]

I know how frustrating all this can be....but I know it WILL get better. Your first stop should be the vet to rule out any problems. My first Cairn, and now Scully, have gotten immediate results from a boiled rice and boiled ground meat that was recommended many years ago by my first vet and has served me well. I have even had my next door neighbor ask me to make it for their German Shepherd when she's had diarrhea. Others here have have excellent help from canned pumpkin. Again, your vet should be your first and foremost expert here.

That being said, all of us have been at the frustrated level at some point - and for any amount of time. We'll help you in any way possible!

[toomanypaws]

You're getting some great advice. I'm sorry you're so frustrated, but don't keep switching brands of food. Listen to your vet over someone working at Petsmart. Most employees in pet stores do not have the educated background in veterinarian medicine and may be guessing or repeating something they heard w/o doing any research. Whenever in doubt, have your pup checked by a vet. Don't ever feel like a failure, we've all had times that we felt we were doing something wrong. This is a great forum for support, and alot of great Cairn lovers who care.

[Eliz222]

I think all of us have felt this way at one time or another. Puppies are a ton of work! I felt like a day care provider when my two were puppies!

I would suggest that you go see the vet first. This will put your mind at ease and that's worth all the gold in the world! Finch had some loose stools a week or so ago, and I just boiled some rice for her. She gobbled it up and her loosed stools went away.

I would not worry about one not eating. Scout use to go a few days without eating. In fact, she did this the other day (skipped a meal). You may want to mention to your vet that your puppy is not eating and ask how long you should go before switching foods. It's not unusual for puppies to go 1 to 2, or even 3 days without eating.

((hugs)) It WILL get easier!

[Barney's Mom]

Oh my, do I know how you feel! I have been at my wits end with Barney many a time and this forum has literally saved me from getting an ulcer from worrying about this little furry critter!! And the nice thing is there is no limit to how many questions you can ask! If there was, I would be maxxed out!

Honestly, the more I learn about taking care of Barney, the scarier it gets, for the simple reason that raising a puppy is EXACTLY like raising a baby/toddler!! All the same rules apply! I think someone could go get that book called "What To Expect The First Year" and it would work for their Cairn puppy! And I think with having 2 little ones, it's probably like raising twins

[mrskti]

Goforette, I have two sisters and i know exactly what you're going through. I hope you're using crates or at least a pen to keep them contained at times. It's just like using a play pen for kids, a must!!!! I will tell you it does get better. One of mine was very easy, and then there's Ellie!!!! We still have accidents with her from time to time, but it's way better than it was. There's always something with them. Whenever we go to florida, Dori gets diarreah. I called my vet back home last time and she said to give her some immodium...check with your vet, it worked great. BTW, my girls really love babyfood...try mixing some of that in their food to get them interested.

Good luck and dont be afraid to ask questions....we all have.

[goforette]

Thank you all so much for everything - advice and understanding. I've been to the vet - and have another appointment on the 17th for fecal - they couldn't find anything wrong. And Hollie will have one good poop and then it will follow by a bad one so she's not consistant. Brystal - well she's eating but now I have to readjust a small change in diet until she gets used to it - maybe I'll get lucky and she'll eat half for me... (Cross your fingers) - the girls share a puppy pen together - although I just purchased three gates as they'll be outgrowing the pen shortly - the vet recommended separating them - he says I need to teach them distance from each other in case one is sick and it teaches them to not be so rowdy with each other - however they whine, cry, rollover like they're going to play dead unless they are together. Sure things get rowdy and they do 90mph sometimes in the yard and don't listen - but I'm not sure separating them would help. Potty training seems to be a disaster. I know I can't expect much at 4 months old - but Hollie will flat out pee as soon as she sees me reach for the door or she'll wait until I pick her up and then pee all over me - Brystal is better but she won't go on the grass she likes the concrete patio - I try to correct it, but they aren't listening. Sometimes it just feels like a huge collection of things. What do you guys do who have multiples? Do you separate them or leash them so they can't play hard with each other? They seem to be great with love and tenderness to other dogs, children, people etc -

[Mollyrocker]

Cricket is my second dog that I am raising from a puppy..she is fast approaching 4 months old and there are many times I feel frustrated and feel like OMG "what have I done?" moments..I had the same feelings raising my Lab from a puppy..I would sometimes cry out of sheer exhaustion. I think what you are feeling is normal..there are alot of unknowns and there is so much to raising a puppy. People talk about how cute and cuddly puppies are, more so than talking about all the work that is involved in raising these cute furballs..

I think you have gotten some great advice here already. I just want to add that I think it is VERY important that you seperate your 2 for periods of time during the day. It is important for them to bond with you individually. I would start training them basic stuff right now, and to do that you will need to work with them one on one. Get them used to being alone from each other now, when they are young...they will protest but just ignore their cries, they will adjust. It will get better. As far as the amount of time you must spend with a pup...it does seem like you can't get anything else done..do you have doggie daycare in your area to bring them once a week to get them socialized with other dogs and give you a chance to catch your breath? I started taking Cricket once a week to give myself a break and give her a chance to meet other puppies her own age..she is there today in fact.

As far as the food thing goes, if the Vet has ruled out parasites, infection, etc. as a cause of the diarhhea than I would start looking at the ingredients in the food you are giving...and how much food. Pick a high quality food with no corn or wheat and stick with it. When Cricket first came home she had loose stools, so I added a little canned pumpkin to her meals (good for firming up stools) and it worked like a charm. You could try that.

I aslo think it is a good time to enroll your 2 in a puppy training class...either 2 seperate classes for each or get another family memeber to handle one while you handle the other in the same class.

Hang in there....they grow up fast and all of a sudden when they start to slow down, you will wish they were just youngins..

cherish the moments..even the crazy ones...

[Aurora5000]

Runny stool-Pepto Bismol tabs- 1/4 tab at meals.

Getting to eat- 1 scoop of canned food mixed in with dry.

Dry food add hot water to make a gravy train.

Baby food spoonful.

To go outside- pick up w/towel, take to a spot in yard, let down. Repeat over and over until they will follow you out to spot. After a while you will just open door and they will go to spot.

Running outside and ignoring you. I drag a shovel across the patio to get their attention. It is like running fingernails on a chalkboard. Then I call them and they come in. I use this when they ignore me. Remember, you are the pack leader and they need to focus on YOU.

Reward good behavior.

Sounds like you are doing just fine. Keep up the good work.

[Levi'smom]

Oh My - Oh My - The response about "raising a Cairn puppy is exactly like raising a baby" is soooo true! I have a four month old, if I wasnt retired I don't know how I could have gotten thru the last 14 weeks. I think the advise about chicken and rice is great. My husband and I raise English Setters, and we have tried this with great success many times. Good luck and let us know what your vet comes up with. Probably something that can be easily cured and you will have your hands full of lively puppies one again. Keep us posted.

[AllAboutPetey]

I don't have any more advice to dispense, you've gotten a ton of it already. Just thought you needed a

[mrskti]

with my two, I have seperate crates for them, it's a must. Gives them time to calm down and they need their own space. Potty stuff....i feel your pain. The trick my trainer told me that was like magic for ellie was to attach a short lead on her and she stopped that immediate peeing. I dont know why, i dont care why....it worked!!!! I think the fact that we reach for the lead instead of their collars and it keeps their heads up with is important. Try it, i have to go back to using the short lead on occassion. Also, try using a treat to keep her attention from the fact she has to pee, that works good too.

My trainer is always telling me to take them out seperately too, no fighting that way, and they get individual attention too. Do i take her advice....nah.....

ALso, I'm sorry to be so chatty, but.....get one long lead and a shorter one...you know the one on the long lead will go as far as they can, so they'll be a little farther apart. just a thought.

[goforette]

Yeah I think I need to start practicing some individual yard time, or wait until I have a second set of hands and leash them in the yard - my mother had purchased us some of the leashes with the 16ft expansion - they are great and we use them when we're visiting other dogs/homes etc. - but maybe it's time to start using them a bit in my own yard to keep them separated when they are out together. I am just so terrified of an injury. Brystal literally dives off the walkway and bounces of the metal shed and keeps going like nothing happened - they tackle each other and I can hear them hit against the concrete - they'll tackle each other in the grass and roll like 3-4 times - I'm not sure with two Cairns the amount of play they should have - I want them to bond and they aren't trying to hurt each other - but boy - it scares me - and trying to catch them to separate one - it's like good luck - I have to lure them away from each other by shaking the treat package at them. The older they get the smarter they get and I feel they are always one step ahead of me - just when I think I have a handle on them and my dogs would never do something - they go ahead and do it. I wish I could get the pee and poop in the pen under control - they'll go in the bed - and I'm tired of doing laundry just for them. I'm tempted just to say no bed until they are older. Is that cold? Maybe just throw them a towel and say that's your bedding for the day?

[kayharley]

I don't have much to add because, as usual, the forum members gave you some great advice.

One thing I do want to mention is that stool samples do not always show parasites/worms. The parasites/eggs have to be in a certain stage to show up.

Just my $.02

Hang in there because having 2 Cairns is definately better than having one although having 3 is even better!

[goforette]

I'm not sure how I could do three - how do you do it..... my theory was I didn't want them to be alone - that when I was at work - they needed each other.... they certainly need each other all right and some days I sit there thinking what did I do. Thanks for the advice on the parasite info. I'm glad I insisted on a second fecal on the 17th. My vet probably thinks I'm crazy - but I lined one up just in case the situation didn't improve. They've been dewormed twice - once right before they were sold to me, and then again about 2 weeks ago (prior to the potty problems) - but then Hollie goes and eats a slug and Brystal likes liking earthworms and who knows what else they've eaten that I can't imagine - the vet said maybe the slug was giving off a defense mechanism/slime that was causing the potty problems - it's trying to get better - it's not super firm - but not a puddle either - it's just more mosit than usual - so maybe it's getting better... I feel so bad talking about their potty problems... sometimes there's not a nice way to address such stinky business ....

[maggie]

The one time we had problems with diarreah we fed her rice and cottage cheese the next couple of meals, she loved it and that ended the problem. It sounds like they spend a lot of time playing in the yard. Do you think maybe they are eating some plant while out there that is causing the diarreah?

As far as peeing in their crate is the crate to big, I use the devider in mine so they have room to stand & turn but no extra, I have a small white towel in there for bedding and a stuffed toy. When the space is restricted neither one peed in the crate. I adjust the devider as they grow and there are no more accidents. Kai-lee would "kill" any bedding she had until just recently [she's now 20months old] Keegan [14 weeks old] is okay with bedding but more apt to pee on it than the towel, so for now he's got the towel. I take them out for potti breaks individually on leash and then they can play. Too soon to tell with Keegan, but with Kai-lee I can take her out on leash she immediately takes care of business, [makes it convenient when we travel or during bad weather].

I think we have all felt frustrated at times. I know I did, I remember when I first came to this forum I felt like you, thinking what have I gotten myself into [and I was only dealing with one!]. I learned a lot from everyone here and puppy school, it all got better and by 9 months we were wanting another one. We just brought Keegan home about four weeks ago, it's a lot of work but this time I know it will get better so I don't have the frustration I had with Kai-lee. Given the oppurtunity I would probably jump at the chance to add more, but I like to take them with us when we go on weekend trips and I think 3 may be too much for that!

[Aurora5000]

The younger one usually copies a lot of what the older one does.

[jodi0553]

goforette,

I don't have any advice to add, as I am in the same boat as you most of the time. Just a quick story to put things in perspective. I have a 7 month old Cairn and he is a total monkey. He knows the word "no" but willfully chooses to ignore it despite any cosequences. He also went through a phase where not eating and loose stool were near daily occurances, and I take him to work, so on the grounds there I have to "hand scoop" at least once a day, so that is good and fun with a little baggy. He broke me down into tears one day in public - at puppy obedience school - he was SO BAD and the trainer said its my fault that I don't dicipline enough! As you all know, you can spend 3/4 of your time diciplining and if these guys aren't in the mood for it, well, tough luck to you! (we won't be using that trainer ever again)

Well, the point of this story - last week a co-worker came by to see my little guy and he said "he is SO good! I am so jealous of how good your puppy is. You see, he has a 14 week old lab at home, and to him, my 7 month old ankle biting monkey is an angel! The moral of the story - they do start to grow up, and it'll happen before you know it!

Jodi

[savannahsmom35]

I wish I could get the pee and poop in the pen under control - they'll go in the bed - and I'm tired of doing laundry just for them. I'm tempted just to say no bed until they are older. Is that cold? Maybe just throw them a towel and say that's your bedding for the day?

No, not cold at all. When Savannah was little, all she had in her crate was a towel and her "baby" (a stuffed lamb). I got about 5 cheap white towels and that is what she had in her crate. Having several of them made it easy because if she had an accident on one towel (which was pretty often), I could put the soiled towel in a plastic bag, tie the ends shut and wait until I had at least one more before I washed. After several months, Savannah began to pee in her crate again. I noticed that the towels smelled like urine even after they had been washed. So I replaced the towels. She was still peeing in her crate. I talked to the vet and he said that she probably started peeing on the towels because they smelled like urine and now even though they had been replaced, it had become a habit. He advised me to clean the inside of her crate good with Nature's Miracle and leave NO bedding in her crate for about a week. He said some pups will pee on cloth because it will soak it up but not on the bare crate. I tried this and haven't had a problem with peeing in the crate since. Try buying some towels and see if that helps with accidents. If not, take ALL the bedding out for a while and see if that stops it. Eventually they will grow out of it but sometimes, you have to break the habit for awhile before they will learn. Good luck and remember that it DOES get better. I swear! I thought that I was going to either kill Savannah or end up in a padded white room before Savannah got potty trained but I tell you, all the sudden, things started getting better! don't get me wrong. She can still be a little and make me want to pull my hair out at times but it is MUCH less often than before (maybe once or twice every few months instead of every week). Hang in there! You sound like a great puppy Mommy but even a great puppy mommy can only take so much before she needs some reassurance and encouragement.

[Kathryn]

Goforette -- it's been a long time since I've had a puppy in the house (though we are seriously considering a second now!), but I do remember and I also remember your frustration. When Allie was a little I used to threaten her with boarding school...

And boy did she have ways of making me mad! The good news is, they all seem to outgrow this stage and then suddenly one day you notice that your little hellions are actually kinda nice dogs.

The advice here at Cairn Talk is really sound, and people do care a lot. It's a good place to learn and also a good place to vent. Be sure to visit often and do both. It will get you through the puppyhood and, if you're lucky, you'll start to share your dog stories and laugh at them.

No advice from here -- just a little sympathy and understanding.

Kathryn

[tena]

I'll chime in ....

Are the dogs crated? if not, I would get two and start there. Use the pen for play or to keep them corralled but I would crate them when I was gone. I'd also attach them to my belt by a lead one at a time to get control over them individually. A dog attached to your belt keeps you focused on them and they on you...a housebreakin help.

Right now they have you out numbered and are running the show. No wonder you are ready to pull your hair out. As each one learns you are the leader and give all kinds of goodies, they will be less inclined to plot an overthrow...

Hang in there.

Tena