"Shape" of Cairns? About to buy!

[DeaCerte33]

Hello to all. This is a great resource and I have been lurking for a while to learn about the breed I am about to become involved with!

I have a question about the "shape" of the Cairns I see on this site and elsewhere. It seems that there are different kinds of coats on the Cairns, specifically, ones with longer hair (that look more like Yorkies) and ones with shorter hair and a more rounded head.

While I am sure this is partially a function of how they are groomed, I much prefer the shorter look to the ones that seem to have larger ears, longer snouts and long, silky hair. I like that "compact, sturdy, scruffy" look. My question is, are there dogs that are genetically predisposed to look that like, or is it ALL in the grooming? If I get a Cairn, will I be able to groom it so that it does not look like a Yorkie?

I hope this question makes sense. Thank you in advance for the help.

Beth

[bradl]

The question makes sense and it's reasonable to want a Cairn that looks like a Cairn - just as it's reasonable to not give a hoot one way or the other and just want a nice dog. Plenty of room for all in a dog's heart

I'm going to tiptoe as carefully as I can here, because we all love our Cairns, regardless. The breed standard describes the breed as it is supposed to be in the US. Often the fringe and scraggly hair is down to grooming (and owner preference) although even a small-eared dog can look to have large ears if it has 'feathers.' Many puppies' ears seem enormous until they grow into them.

To see more examples of the breed, try the Specialty and Achievement albums on the gallery page. If you browse the Specialty and Achievment albums you will see a tiny sampling of Cairns being bred by those actively engaged in attempting to maintain breed type. Even at that, you will see a surprising variety. To see even more pictures, ask a breeder if they are members of the CTCA and if you can look through some of their old yearbooks and newsletters. Also look at the Cairn breed books at the big bookstores. Many have lots of pictures. Look for the books with emphasis on breed history.

Please note that all dogs, even the top show dogs, have faults. I've heard it said that even a great dog has as at least three areas where it could stand improvement. A lot of breeding is about improvement, defining and refining 'type', and building consistency. Consistency and adherence to the standard are hallmarks of serious breeding, in my personal view.

I've heard from at least one experienced breeder that small ears correctly placed and muzzles in the correct ratio to back-skull are part of a long list of things that are easy to lose in a breeding program. (Some are easier or harder to recover from but the list of potential areas for 'drift' away from good breed type goes on and on...)

Having stood at the end of the line (that is, last place) with my dog(s) on many occasions, I can certainly say that the degree of correctness of the dog relative to breed standard, or another dog, is not much related to the worth of the dog as a friend, companion, and family member. Almost every show dog I know is also a pet, often first, last, and always. And our pets have important jobs to do too, even if showing and breeding isn't one of them.

[DeaCerte33]

I found some pictures from this site's gallery to better illustrate my point. No offense to anyone whose Cairn looks like this - just personal preference!

This is the long-haired, Yorkie-looking type:

And this is the shorter-haired, seemingly-differently-shaped look I prefer:

Hope that helps.

Edit: fixed image link

[DeaCerte33]

The question makes sense and it's reasonable to want a Cairn that looks like a Cairn - just as it's reasonable to not give a hoot one way or the other and just want a nice dog. Plenty of room for all in a dog's heart

I'm going to tiptoe as carefully as I can here, because we all love our Cairns, regardless. The breed standard describes the breed as it is supposed to be in the US. Often the fringe and scraggly hair is down to grooming (and owner preference) although even a small-eared dog can look to have large ears if it has 'feathers.'  Many puppies' ears seem enormous until they grow into them.

To see more examples of the breed, try the Specialty and Achievement albums on the gallery page. If you browse the Specialty and Achievment albums you will see a tiny sampling of Cairns being bred by those actively engaged in attempting to maintain breed type. Even at that, you will see a surprising variety. To see even more pictures, ask a breeder if they are members of the CTCA and if you can look through some of their old yearbooks and newsletters. Also look at the Cairn breed books at the big bookstores. Many have lots of pictures. Look for the books with emphasis on breed history.

Please note that all dogs, even the top show dogs, have faults. I've heard it said that even a great dog has as at least three areas where it could stand improvement. A lot of breeding is about improvement, defining and refining 'type', and building consistency. Consistency and adherence to the standard are hallmarks of serious breeding, in my personal view.

I've heard from at least one experienced breeder that small ears correctly placed and muzzles in the correct ratio to back-skull are part of a long list of things that are easy to lose in a breeding program. (Some are easier or harder to recover from but the list of potential areas for 'drift' away from good breed type goes on and on...)

Having stood at the end of the line (that is, last place) with my dog(s) on many occasions, I can certainly say that the degree of correctness of the dog relative to breed standard, or another dog, is not much related to the worth of the dog as a friend, companion, and family member.  Almost every show dog I know is also a pet, often first, last, and always. And our pets have important jobs to do too, even if showing and breeding isn't one of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Brad! Your post is spot-on. I certainly will love my dog either way it looks, and I am not getting a Cairn solely on the basis of their appearance. But I don't think anyone here can deny that their breed appearance is a huge factor in deciding on a Cairn!

I don't really want a show dog, either. I had a terrier mutt for 16 years and she was the best! Though I can assure you should would never win a show, I loved her just the same.

But I agree that I think it's reasonable to want a Cairn that looks like a Cairn - I guess my question is, are the ones who might look more like Yorkies (forgive me for continually using this comparison, but it's the best way I know to describe it) just in need of grooming to achieve that "Cairn look"? Or is there a chance that my Cairn might not end up looking so "Cairn-ish" not matter what I do?

[Toto times 2]

Interesting question. You are not alone in wondering. I have had friends ask me the same thing. To me it looks like a difference in grooming from the two pictures you posted. Actually I have two cairns and at different times in the grooming cycle they look completely different. If you are concerned, ask to see the parents of the pup you are considering. Handstripping gives a much different look than clipping. The handstripping seems to maintain the more wiry hair while cairns who are clipped tend to develop a softer coat. Both of my boys are clipped for allergy control but I don't think you can mistake them for anything other than cairns. Best of luck - any cairn you get will be a great addition to the family.

[bradl]

Well I agree Pixel there is a cutie with a lovely looking coat and charming expression.

Some dogs do have a genetically soft coat that can't really by rescued by grooming. The breeder should be able to give you a frank assessment of the quality of the parent's coats, and the likely quality of the puppy's. (Some pups don't develop a nice harsh coat until they are a few years old, though.) I would guess that quite a few of the clippered dogs could be dramatically transformed with a lot of coat work over the course of a year or two.

Your best bet as Toto times 2 suggested is to see the parents and if possible other dogs in the line. A good breeder is likely to have some consistency going. If you like the look of those dogs, you're likely to like the look of your pup.

[Guest posting as: DeaCerte33]

Thanks, everyone. I will be visiting the breeder in two weeks and I will be sure to ask him about the parents' coats.

Hopefully I can determine if that particular "look" is something his Cairns possess.

While we're on the superficial subject of coats and appearance ... I know that you cannot determine the color a Cairn will be when they are puppies. However, is it fair to say that generally, the light pups stay light and the dark pups stay dark, with natural changes in shade of both?

Thanks! I am sure I will have tons more questions.

[Carolinasmom]

However, is it fair to say that generally, the light pups stay light and the dark pups stay dark, with natural changes in shade of both?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With some dogs, you just cannot predict their color. Carolina's mom was very light and her dad was pretty much black. Carolina started out with all sorts of colors, then became very light, even lighter than her mother. Now she is grey/black. When I look at a pic of her about 4 years ago, (she's 7 now) she doesn't even look like the same dog!

[suedelu29]

Hey that change of color thing is being brought up again. I had asked once before if you guys were kidding or if it was really true. Maybe it is. For the person who started this my Roxie is like the first picture shown on here, longer snout, thinner softer hair. I got her here in Wisconsin. Then I got Vinnie from a man who had bought him in Georgia. Totally different dog. Rough and tough looking, big paws (to Roxie's tiny ones), thick stocky legs (to Roxie's thin delicate ones), very thick COURSE hair. Much wider, shorter snout, and a bigger rear end. They seem like two totally different dogs, yet they both are supposed to be pure cairns. I don't know what gives on this either. I wish I would have known there was a difference. Any one else?

[bradl]

Hey that change of color thing is being brought up again.  I had asked once before if you guys were kidding or if it was really true.  Maybe it is.

Oh it's true.

Then:

Now:

[Guest posting as: DeaCerte33]

Holy cow! Now THAT'S a color change!

[Guest Guest]

Hey that change of color thing is being brought up again.  I had asked once before if you guys were kidding or if it was really true.  Maybe it is.  For the person who started this my Roxie is like the first picture shown on here, longer snout, thinner softer hair.  I got her here in Wisconsin.  Then I got Vinnie from a man who had bought him in Georgia.  Totally different dog.  Rough and tough looking, big paws (to Roxie's tiny ones), thick stocky legs (to Roxie's thin delicate ones), very thick COURSE hair.  Much wider, shorter snout, and a bigger rear end.  They seem like two totally different dogs, yet they both are supposed to be pure cairns.  I don't know what gives on this either.  I wish I would have known there was a difference.  Any one else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems to me, from all the pictures I have seen (I think I've seen every one on the web) that there are, indeed, very structurally different Cairns. This difference seems to go beyond grooming differences and into the things you listed - specifically head shape and coat.

I guess you have to chalk it up to different breeders choosing difference characteristics to breed.

[bradl]

DeaCerte33, I think that 'true wheaten' and 'true reds' may tend to stay that color. Dogs with brindling seem to trend towards dark or silver as they get older. Some actually go lighter for a few years, and then get dark later. The breeder probably can't guarantee, but they may have some insight and a better than random guess

We've only ever had brindles so our experience is limited. I would never pick a dog for its color and could love a wheaten or clear red just as easily, but I will confess to a special fondness for the brindles. My very favorite is the dark reddish-brown brindle that looks to me like a pile of autumn leaves.

[kayharley]

I have a wonderful calender that has such diverse pictures of the Cairn terrier....all black, brindles, reds...some with a more scruffy look and others tidied up.

I prefer the shaggy but contained look myself and all the colors are gorgeous...it's the spirit, the nature, personality and character of the Cairn that makes me love them so.

[Toto times 2]

I have a wheaten and a brindle and I'm not sure who is the cutest. They both win equal cutey status. Smokey is wheaten and gets very light when he is clipped and Ghillie is a brindle who gets much redder when he is clipped. Ghillie's mom was a red and his dad was black. All of his brothers and sisters were brindle. The funniest part is that Ghillie had always had a red moustache.

[Eliz222]

Scout, who was almost all black at 10 weeks changed into a grey brindle by the time she was a year old. She is now turning red! She looks like she had her hair dyed and her true color is coming through.

Isn't this funny looking???

This isn't a good picture of it, but she looks so funny now! Here she is with her "beard". Her hair is turning red under her chin!

[pjoes_girl]

What's really funny, now that i think about it, is when i was a teenager, my mom broke down after much aggitating from me for years, and got us a little mutt dog. I thought it was so ugly, I honestly can tell you I wasn't even sure what it was at first. Now in hindsight, i think it may have been a cairn. What I thought was ugly then, I think is the cutest thing now. Her name was Cuddles and I think she was the first dog she ever let in the house, We had her for years. Now I have a Brindle, He's dark, but turning lighter, not sure what he'll be yet. And he has the big feet and I think his hair is coarse...so far, not that long though. His tongue is so long and skinny though, it cracks me up.

[suedelu29]

This may sound dumb but what color actually is "brindle" and "wheaton"? Roxie was called brindle on her papers and is a very very light whitish blonde and Vin was called red wheaton and he is a dark auburn with a very white butt and very white inner thighs. Also, I never saw Roxie's parents, but the breeder showed me two pictures (out of cards) saying this is what the mom and dad look like. I could swear one was an all WHITE dog. This can't be, can it? The other was kind of Rox's light blonde color. At the time I didn't know white was a no-no so I didn't make anything of it.

[bradl]

I think of brindle as ANY color that is shot through with black hairs, even a few.

Here is a lovely Danish site that lists and shows some Cairn colors.

http://www.lachleen.dk/uk/Farver.htm

I'm too lazy to look up the exact colors the AKC accepts for Cairns. We just call them all 'brindle' (if they are at all brindle) rather than 'red brindle' etc., since they could be just about anything a few years later.

Some very light wheatens and creams look close to white in some pictures.

[wheezie23]

It's so funny how they change colors. I giggle whenever someone looking for a cairn puppy looks for a particular color. You just never know what they'll end up as. Both Tucker and Zoe looked the same as puppies. She went to a red to a true light wheaten before she died. Tucker has gone from very light wheaten to the beautiful red that he has now, and we're seeing some black finally coming in on his ears and throughout his coat. Brad, I would love to see Scruffy go black the way yours has. His coat has darkened and become richer now that he's a year old. We'll see.... As for the difference in coat type, I know that the wheatens normally do not have that harsh, coarse coat that the brindles and darker coated dogs have. It's just a little softer, but I love both.

thela

[toomanypaws]

It took me 3 cairns before I got more of the "cairn look" that you're talking about, and she's still not perfect. I did see my first cairn's parents. They were both very compact, great head shape, small ears. Kiara ended up longer than standard and does have larger ears than standard. My 2nd cairn, Abbey also had a very stocky dad w/ the best hair I've seen on a cairn, yet her hair is more silky and she tends to remind me of an Australian Terrier. With my 3rd cairn, I not only saw the parents, who were both great looking cairns, I also saw some previous pups and littermates which helped me know what to expect w/ Hannah.

From my experience, just seeing the parents isn't enough. Ask to see previous pups too.

[DeaCerte33]

Thanks to everyone for the great replies! I might be going to the breeder this weekend to do some recon. Perhaps I can take some pictures.

[newcairn]

Deacerte33, the 2nd dog you pictured earlier in this post in more like what a Cairn should look like, according to the breed standard, and also what I personally like mine to look like.

These dogs should be sturdy and rugged looking. Short legs, ears should appear small (not large) once the coat comes in. If you were to shave the head they would look big, but the ears should look small. The tail should never fall over the back. The coat should be thick and wirey. The chest should be fairly deep, and the muzzle should not be too long.

Grooming can absolutely make the Cairn in my opinion. A well groomed dog is the key to getting the true Cairn look. All the dogs you see, and say WOW!, have been groomed to epitomize the breed standard. Some like to let them go shaggy because it is alot of work to get them to look that way, but I groom myself in the warmer months. Not just to get the look but to keep him cool and clean.

I usually do it over the course of a couple of days. I just finished his neck yesterday. This is probably the most important part for getting the right look in head. All the hair behind the jawline should be cleaned out, giving the head a larger effect. I find that as the upper neck coat grows in, it challenges the size of the head taking away from that lion cub look I like...Here are a couple of headshots after a recent grooming.

[hallswel]

Rebel is considered red. It really depends on the light with him. His mother was wheaten and sire red. He is also my guinea pig when it comes to stripping/grooming. I hope to one day get the same look twice. HAHA

In the first picture the red shows up a little more.

Here is one outside with lots of light/glare

[Guest Guest]

Woodie was a wheaton with real course hair when we got her at six months. A "scrub brus on legs" her hair would almost scratch you. As she got older though her coat got softer. I ran into a breeder at the vets and he was quite intreged with Woodie's coat. She had a dark stipe down her back and was most noticeable when she was just groomed. We always just had her clipped. She had large ears that were more noticeable when she was a puppy with no hair. Miss her terribly.