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Talk me out of it!


AndyB

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Okay, folks! I created an account on this forum just to get some group-armchair-psychotherapy. Our family has been saying for the longest time that we'd like to become dog owners, and yesterday a local adoption agency showed that they have four Cairn puppies, born 12/7, ready for adoption. We emailed them last night, but I want to be reassured that we're the right people for one of these pups, and that it's the right dog for us.

The backstory:

My wife and I love dogs. Our two daughters (10 and 8) love dogs. We've always planned to get one "someday." But there's always been some excuse not to get it yet. At first the girls were just too young—I've heard sources saying nobody should get a dog with children under the age of 5 (or 6, or 8, opinions vary). A couple of years ago my wife developed easily-triggered asthma, so we'd pretty much be looking at dander-free breeds. Up until this summer we lived in a townhome and said "we can't have a dog here"; now we moved to a house with a fenced in yard (and one of the talking points was "it would be good for a dog!"). Once we moved... between the new house and last year's trip to Disneyworld, wow, money is tight. And dogs are expensive.

I've always had mixed feelings about how and where one goes about getting a dog. I know that the virtuous thing to do is to adopt from a shelter, and I've always kind of looked at people shopping for a specific breed as elitist eugenicists ("Oo, purebred, la di da!"). On the other hand, here we are looking for a very narrow selection of hypoallergenic breeds, and if you want to be sure of your dog's genetics, and don't want to involve puppy mills, then you're looking for a reputable breeder and probably running into big money. Waiting on a shelter or agency to have exactly the breed you want can be a long wait, and you of course often get older dogs with unknown history. Now, with these pups, it seems like the perfect conditions: They're terriers, thus are hypoallergenic. The pups were born in the care of the foster agency, so they've had a good environment from birth. You're getting a puppy so you have the chance to train it right. These pups in fact have enough not-Cairn to have some supposedly beneficial hybrid vigor (both parents are described as "Cairn mix," and their dad's ears are floppy). You're supporting a rescue, and last but not least paying less than $300 for the dog.

Then I did some Googling—"so what's a Cairn Terrier anyway? Oo, cute!" (Googles "Cairn personality"—eyes widen.) I spent a half hour on this forum—"Are you sure you want a Cairn?" "Hang on for a wild ride—this ain't no lab!" "What were we thinking?" "Dingo Cairn ate my kitchen cabinet!!" Holy crap, I find myself thinking, are Cairns the "right dog" for anything other than hardened circus lion tamers?

One other concern: We mentioned to an aunt the desire to eventually get a dog, and in her blunt way she said, "Oh, couples who both work should never get dogs." I wrote her off as extreme, but last night I saw the same sentiment somewhat more eloquently expounded, and I do worry whether we're the right family for a brand-new puppy (of any breed?). Now, in our defense, we both work in jobs with fairly lenient work-from-home policies. I'm a software developer (well, as of 2 years ago; for my entire adult life before that I was an underemployed professional violinist, but that's another story). In my current job, I don't think I'd ever have to go into the office more than three days a week, and usually spend only six hours of that day in the office. In fact, for the past month, I've been going in only 1 or 2 days a week. Fully remote jobs do exist in this field, and maybe I'd get one someday. My wife's job regularly lets her come home at 2pm to be here when the girls get off the school bus. So bottom line, the dog would alone as much as 6 hours at a time, three days a week—at most, and maybe both jobs would be more generous for a few weeks at the beginning.

So what do you think? If we want to be ethical and caring people should we forget about dog ownership until at least one of us is fully remote? Is a Cairn too crazy for first-time dog owners? I'm both really excited and ready to jump for this opportunity and also a little scaredycat. This is your chance to "talk us out of it"—or, knowing that I have in fact stumbled into a bunch of people united by an ability to love Cairns (or is this in fact a support group to help those suffering from Cairns survive the experience?), to in fact talk us into it.

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thanks for laying it out so clearly.

the first question that comes to my mind is along these lines: it seems like you have not had a dog before, thus a cairn would be your first dog. this isn't usually recommended. raising a cairn requires patience, consistency, a sense of humor and above all iron-clad will power. 

I believe that if people are motivated --as you should be, since this puppy seems the perfect solution to your complex issues-- then the problems of a cairn as a first dog can be overcome.

training: I think most cairns pick up house-training quickly, but it does mean that at least one adult will have to be on-hand 24 hours for a few days in order to get the basics instilled, and afterwards you will have to have your method in place (there are several to choose from) to follow up. to me there seems no question of comprehensive training of the dog without a trainer --you need a trainer (or excellent obedience classes), and they must be by a trainer who knows TERRIERS. non-terrier trainers, if my impression is correct, sometimes produce counter-productive results. I am convinced that many terriers, and above all cairns, are resistant to operant conditioning. they don't lose sight of cause and effect, and they turn over "commands" carefully in their minds before they decide to obey. you may also need some kind of doggy day-care (they are increasingly common) if you are both going to work during the day. cairn puppies are extremely active and the chances that a young puppy will patiently sleep or entertain itself with comical thoughts are zero. so, first, don't think of going into this all on your own.

cairn living: it this is your first puppy, you need basic puppy-proofing of the house. you need to become neat, and not leave ANYTHING on the floor that you wish to not be in shreds or shards. with most puppies, and absolutely with cairns, this all applies to table tops too. be prepared to get a few tasteful puppy gates to control the dog's access to chosen parts of the house, whether you are home or not. all this applies to cairns but only more so. they will levitate themselves onto counter-tops, and climb over gates or fences like monkeys. they will open cupboard doors they can reach (fortunately most are never tall enough to get to door handles). light-weight garbage cans will all be toppled. they will gobble first and ask questions later, so any and all medications and vitamins but be kept very securely where they cannot get them. cairns can never left unattended outdoors, even in a well-fenced area. they will dig under wooden fences, and climb over chain-link fences. and I am with the portion of cairn owners who think they should never be off leash. even the most well-trained cairn may not be able to overcome their natural prey drive. a stray rabbit, skunk, cat, or wildlife, and your cairn can disappear unless you have a good harness and leash. most important, raising a cairn requires family solidarity that is not universal. when it is time to draw the line with your puppy, absolutely everybody in the household must be with the program. one dissenter, one slacker, and your cairn will exploit that. a cairn who remains hopeful of ruling the world is a misery to itself and everybody around it. your cairn must be happy and confident with you in charge. then it can relax and enjoy you. 

cairn minds and souls: these dogs are unbelievably smart, and you will have great difficulty trying to stay a step ahead. your puppy will think of ways to get into trouble that you can't possibly conceive of. they are also famously willful. they will keep trying to get round you and your rules with a persistence that will astonish you. only calm, no-fuss consistency on your part can defeat this (never get loud, angry or tearful, because to a cairn that just means success at pushing your buttons). your cairn must have absolutely no hope that he or she will find a way through your rules. if cairns are as smart as all that, why are they not at the top of the league for "intelligence"? because unlike shepherds, gun dogs, guard dogs and so on, terriers were not bred to take their orders from humans. they were bred to solve problems on their own, and do work --like finding and trapping vermin that are invisible inside walls or burrows-- involving problem-solving on the grand scale. your puppy will spend some time looking at you as the main problem to be solved. the sooner you can get across to the puppy that you are not going to solved, that you are not a problem but a partner for life, that you are strong, smart and trustworthy, the sooner you will have a fantastic friend and supporter in your cairn. 

if cairns are all that much trouble, why do people get them --and having had them, rarely get another kind of dog? that's how good they are. it is difficult to raise a cairn (and --not every single one, this is just a generalization), but if you do it right, by the time they are three (or thereabouts) you will have a companion of a sort you can hardly believe. they are loyal, empathetic, endlessly surprising, admirable, optimistic, and very funny. but what you get with a cairn you have to work for --you and your family will all be better people (I'm sure you're already very good) after you have successfully raised a cairn (and you would not be unusual if you quickly decided to raise two). over and over I see people here saying that while they love all their dogs, their relationships with their cairns are much deeper than they have achieved with any others. 

so, my impression is that this possibility is one that might not come along again for you, at least not with cairns. if you are informed about cairns and have considered what your family can do together, this could be just right. there are other dogs, and many have unique, amazing virtues (highest among them all, mutts). I think all cairn problems can be overcome with preparation and organization, and the problems turn out in the end to be very small in relation to the rewards. 

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Hi Andy - and welcome to this wonderful forum. It is a valuable resource for any new cairn owner... And a source of first-hand information for questions you might not have even thought to ask!

I was impressed with the questions you brought up, and as I read through them, I started to formulate a response, hoping I'd be able to keep it reasonably short, but to my relief, I discovered that pkcrossley had done the job for me. (She is the best when it comes to experience, intelligence, empathy and practical advice).

You mentioned the virtue of adopting from a shelter, which is true. Another good option is to adopt from one of several cairn rescue groups. Colonal Potter Cairn Rescue is one that I adopted from. They are run by devoted volunteers across the country and the dogs are vetted and fostered so their behaviors, etc. are known. Some are mixes and some are full bred. This agency also gives a lot of support, backup and guidance to new, inexperienced owners.

As a first-time cairn owner myself, I would offer you the possibility of considering an older dog as I did, one who is already house trained, whose habits and behaviors are known. (I adopted a 10 year old, and 7 years later, a 3 year old). Even though there is nothing cuter than a pup, we usually fall hopelessly in love with these remarkable companions no matter their age. This also relates to the mention of the words "trouble: or "problems" . No dog, regardless of breeding, etc. is completely trouble - or problem - free. But I say this in the context of raising children you adore... The love you have for each other makes the experience a fulfilling pleasure and a joy!

 You are correct to consider the expense. This was not as much of an issue in former times, but it is today. Due to advances in medical technology, escalating drug and vet costs, etc, $$$ is a realistic factor to consider.

As per pk's advice above, a trainer for a first time owner of any breed can go a long way, helping you to gain confidence and skill and avoid errors. 

Please don't hesitate to ask more questions here. That's what we all do.

You really do sound like you are on the right path in your search. Any dog you get would be lucky to have you!

Edited by sanford
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FEAR THE CAIRN!

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 Firstly let me say that there is no such thing as a breed that does not shed dander. They all have skin cells that shed off. So if your wife has asthma I would do my research before  adopting a dog...sounds harsh I know but many animals land back up in the shelter system for exactly that reason. You could always hang out in someone’s house where a dog lives and see how your wife reacts. Allergies are one thing however Asthma attacks are a far more serious issue.

I totally agree with PK on all her points.  Most  terriers are not the ideal breed for first time owners. Cairns are free thinkers, they were bred to react to vermin on their own without their humans telling them what to do. A bored Cairn youngster left alone for hours spells trouble. Also they are incredibly smart and don’t take orders easily...there is a reason why a lot of terrier breeds don’t do well in obedience...that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen but you need to have amazing patience and a great sense of humour. Sam is our 3rd Cairn and our 5th terrier and he and his Scottish terrier room mate Rosie, never fail to keep me in stitches with their antics. They are characters for sure and keep us on our toes!We love our Cairns and Scottie’s.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-hypoallergenic-dogs

Edited by Sam I Am
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Until one has loved an animal, a part of  one's soul remains unawakened.  - Anatole France

Adventures with Sam &Rosie

 

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Dog allergies indeed seem to fall along a continuum, rather than be yes/no.

My wife will be nearly suffocated by a half-hour exposure to a room with a pet bird in it,  yet we have lived with as many as six Cairns underfoot (two presently) and she reports no ill effects. She notes that she *does* experience slightly increased allergy symptoms when handling wee puppies (neonates to a couple weeks old). Meanwhile, her sister's Great Pyrenees will provoke more significant reactions after a couple hours. 

So while not hypo-allergenic per se, for Peggy Cairns are at least "low or minimal allergy."

As to their personalities I find Cairns irresistible, irrepressible, and irreplaceable. Challenging, sure. But for terrier folk that's a feature, not a bug :P 

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Think pk speaks for lots of us.

Sometimes Angus would drive me to the edge with his 'I know better than you' or 'Don't bother me now I'm busy attitude' But he was always so lively and so full of fun. I had to laugh and somehow we grew to be the greatest friends. 

Re coat My cairn's coat always smelled so fresh and sweet clean - no doggy" odor ever. 

If you can be with your pup most of the time and can stand the endless supervision needed for the first year or two. And if you can get all the family to be consistent relating to him then the most fun and loving buddy will be your reward.

Good luck to you!

 

 

 

arely had a bath. No"do

 

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Andy - I reread your post and this time I focused on your reference to your wife's "easily triggered asthma". At the risk of making assumptions, I'm guessing that you are concerned that you might have to rehome a new pup due to the asthma you described. No parent would want to have to tell their kids that they must give up the dog they've come to love.

This leads me to ask if you've consulted with her  specialist/allergist, pulmanologist, immunologist. I am fairly certain this topic is common and familiar to such a doctor. Perhaps the Doc might do some tests or at the very least, give your wife some practcal guidelines. Considering all the impressive research you've done, this  might be an appropriate way to address this matter; making this the first, #1 issue at the top of your list.

     

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Ditto to what Brad and PK said in regard to the terrier personality.  I cannot imagine not having one of these inventive, entertaining, intelligent and often impish dogs in my life.  I got my first cairn in 1984 (but had had terriers and dachshunds before -- all similar personalities, and had grown up with dogs), and am now with Numbers 4 and 5. All but one came to me as a puppy. I have gotten my dogs both from breeders and from cairn rescue organizations.

What also needs to be said is that cairns are puppies for a long, long time.  Like up to 2 years.  My younger dog, Angus, is just about a year-and-a-half, and still exhibits all of those puppy characteristics: over-the-top-playful, running full speed and then sleeping like a log, investigating anything that doesn't fit into his standard as normal (and his standard has a much broader range than mine), still mouthy/chewy/investigative about items he finds around the house and on walks (demolished a paperback book taken from the tabletop last week -- fortunately I had finished it...), still quite bark-y.

But we did raise all but one of these dogs while at least one of us was working, and we did not have the opportunity to work from home.  We managed to crate train the dogs, and to make allowances when they were little to get them outside during the day (came home at lunch or hired a responsible neighborhood kid), put up gates through out the house. We made sure when we were home the dogs got lots and lots and lots of attention: walks, obedience classes, training sessions, trips to Petco, etc. We live in the city, and our neighborhood is Dog Walking Central at around 5:30 p.m. every evening, so they got early exposure and interaction with other dogs, kids and people.

With kids: 10 and 8 could be mature enough to take some responsibilites for the puppy. I would be very careful, though, to teach your children how to interact with the puppy.  Too many kids love to scoop up little dogs and hug them, kiss them, etc.  That is an accident waiting to happen, and little cairns have very very sharp teeth.  And you may note that, as adults, they have quite large teeth for a dog their size! Kids need to learn right from the start to "read" a dog's body language, and to treat the dog with respect. Dogs and kids can be great companions -- I have the best possible memories of my childhood dogs, and of the closeness we shared.  That said, I had dog-saavy parents, and they set the rules early and firmly. 

Puppies are great fun -- and a huge amount of work -- and I loved having each of mine.  I have loved them more as adults, however, when we have bonded and are close companions.  You might want to consider, given this would be your first terrier and your children's first dog, adopting an adult dog.  Working with a breeder or a rescue organization, you could find a dog matched to your family's interests and activity level, one that had been evaluated by a cairn-saavy person who could tell you how well the dog might fit in to your family.

This forum is a great resource for cairn owners and would-be owners, and I encourage you to stay in touch as you go through this process.  I do think a dog adds to family life, and I hope you and your family find the best possible dog for your lifestyle.  Best wishes for your efforts and decisions!

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Agree Kathryn...puppies are adorable but a huge amount of work. As much as I love their puppy breath, their endless antics and at times giving me mini heart attacks, a grown up Cairn that has gone through all of the silliness a pup can hand out is very rewarding. If your wife has no issues with her asthma why not contact a breeder who has a mature dog that is no longer in the show ring who is needing a good home. 

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Until one has loved an animal, a part of  one's soul remains unawakened.  - Anatole France

Adventures with Sam &Rosie

 

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Good idea.  We adopted Nelly at age four after her retirement from the show ring and breeding.  It was our first experience with this after adopting 5 different Cairns as pups.  True, when you adopt an adult you don't get all the cute stuff, but you don't get very much, if any, of the challenging stuff.  And let's face it, Cairns are cute Forever!  Also, we adopted Max as a 3 year old after being cared for by Potomac Cairn Terrier Rescue.  There was very little teaching that needed to be done, just tailoring.  As an example, we have a free running petite Dutch bunny...we had to work on that one!  Max celebrates his third anniversary with us today.  I love Nelly and Max with all my heart.  Everything everyone else had said is true!  There is nothing like knowing one of these Beautiful Creatures.  Say, "Yes"!  :)

 

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Max and Nelly
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My wife and I got our Cairn 2 puppy years ago as our first dog.  A recommendation I can offer, is that if you can, schedule the dog pickup for a Saturday (If you have weekends off) and if possible someone take a few days off to help get the puppy acclimated to the house.  My wife was able to stay home for a few days which gave us a good foundation to start off of instead of throwing the dog into a crate the next day and hoping for the best.

In regards to a Cairn being your first dog, I would agree with the others above, in that it is a difficult task.  But as mentioned, as long as the family is on the same page for obedience it can be done, with some patience, I mean patience, ok A LOT OF PATIENCE.  But they are truly amazing friends who are worth every book (Kathryn- we lost two last week off the coffee table...), worth every good pair of wool socks, shoe insole, and cat toy.  Good luck and let us know if we can help.

20190706_134307-5.jpg

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Just wanted to add that Sam will be three yrs old this year and is a delightful Cairn . Thank goodness...as the first couple of years we repeatedly said OMG when will he grow up. It really is true what most Cairn owners say. This breed is slow in maturing but once they”grow up”, are a lovely companions. 

But I must admit I also miss those baby days 💕

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Edited by Sam I Am
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Until one has loved an animal, a part of  one's soul remains unawakened.  - Anatole France

Adventures with Sam &Rosie

 

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A couple of suggestions to add to this outstanding information gold mine provided by the loving and knowledgeable keepers of the cheeky Cairn.

If you are interested in this breed (or any other breed for that matter) consider contacting the local breed club and asking about their gatherings and meetings. Often they are open and encourage interested persons to come.  I know our Northern Californian Cairn club was most inviting and welcoming. It was such a treat to meet so many Cairn lovers and their dogs. Everyone available to answer questions and let you pet a few Cairns. Same was true with our Westie club.

Also, if you do decide on a Cairn puppy, consider pet insurance. We had Westies for 40 years, then we got Katie the Carin as a puppy. Turned our life upside down (happily). “What were we thinking!” She was like a hoover vacuum. Resulted in an emergency vet visit for swallowing tiny nails. ($3,000 bill.) 

She is a charmer! I am forever fascinated and amused watching her as she thinks through whether to follow our requests: walkies?, Come! etc. She has that look as if to say ”what’s in it for me ?”

She has taught us to be patient, calmly persistent and to have treats at the ready.

Cheers!

Katie March 2018 quiet moment.jpg

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Oh, good suggestion about pet insurance.  The way these companies work, if you don't get it right away they discount as many health conditions as possible as, "pre-existing conditions".  That's why we've never gotten it; they make up a list based on every ache and pain your pup has had, and then make it unaffordable.  That would be the down side of adopting an adult.

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Max and Nelly
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Thanks everyone! Just to ease everyone's curiosity, I'll say that we've decided to go with a Schnauzer instead. Of the litter of 4 Cairns in question, it turns out one had died right away of a heart related issue and another had a heart murmur. With those health concerns, coupled with my hesitation about raising such an, um, exciting dog as a Cairn as our first dog, we jumped at an opportunity for some brand new Schnauzers that came up. Plus, my wife's parents are on their second Schnauzer and we've had a close relationship with both of them—the first Schnauzer (Emma) was gotten while my wife was still growing up in their house and in fact we dogsat the current one (Misty) for an entire month in our house just recently. (Thanks to those concerned about the asthma; it's true that "hypoallergenic" can be a badly misleading term, but we do know she had no problem with Misty.)

Yes, we definitely want to get pet insurance right from the start.

Another thing this conversation has opened my eyes about is the importance of professional training or obedience classes—I would imagine, for all dogs. My vague impression had been, "Well, you can probably do all the basics on your own, and if you're having a really hard time training you sign up for obedience school for a few weeks." But I think I was way off the mark on that, and should plan on ongoing obedience classes with all the family members as a matter of course, as soon as the puppy is ready. (I'm also aware that there's a lot of homework I need to do about dog psychology and general training philosophy. I'd love recommended reading! I already enjoyed leafing through the online previews of Born to Bark, recommended elsewhere on this site.)

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For books I would highly recommend the two below.  They really opened our eyes about having a puppy and dog in our home for the first time.  Good luck and remember to have fun!

1. The art of raising a puppy: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-Puppy-Revised/dp/0316083275
2. How to be your dogs best friend: https://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Dogs-Best-Friend/dp/0316610003/

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schnauzers are German terriers, recently confirmed by genetic studies, so a lot of what we've been saying here would apply to your pup. I think schnauzers are terribly cute, I know you will have a lot of fun... eventually. 

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I've known a couple of great schnauzers fun family members. But at pk says they are terriers too  - quite a challenge as a pup. And same rewards too- a great buddy for the family.

Recommend the two books above also.

Very best wishes

 

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I have been a long-time fan of a friend's schnauzer, Mr. Peabody. And Pea does act the terrier in every possible way, including his enthusiasm for chasing and catching squirrels and bunnies.  The grooming is a little different, but the dog under the coat does act a lot like a cairn!

Congratulations!

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We don't pick her up until Feb 8, but the seller sent us some photos. For a name, my 10-yr-old is lobbying for "Leia," as a Star Wars reference. As far as I'm concerned, though, it's down to two: the first thing that occurred to me when the seller referred to her by the collar with daisies on it was "Daisy" (which technically could be a Tolkien reference, since there's a Daisy who's a cousin of Samwise Gamgee (and another, a Daisy Baggins). Or, for an extremely obscure Narnia reference, "Clipsie," from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, mentioned as the daughter of the chief of the Dufflepuds.

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PERFECT pup for you all!

Wonderful breed, beautiful and personable.

Whenever I have met a Schnauzer, when out and about or in obedience classes, they have always been well behaved, quick learners and devoted to their owners.

Enjoy!

schnauzer.jpg

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