KIdney Failure

[anniegirl]

Hi. My 16 year old Cairn has sadly been diagnosed with Stage 3 kidney failure. We are trying to keep him comfortable. We have no recommendations from the Vet so I would imagine there is not too much we can do. He still eats 2 meals a day with interest and walks but very slowly and sleeps alot. He paces at night for an hour or more and sometimes has anxiety and shakes. He has accidents with peeing at night now which he has never had. I get up with him to console him, it helps a bit.

Has anyone else gone thru this? Is there anything else I can do to help him?

Thanks for caring.........

 

[Guest dog person]

43 minutes ago, anniegirl said:

Hi. My 16 year old Cairn has sadly been diagnosed with Stage 3 kidney failure. We are trying to keep him comfortable. We have no recommendations from the Vet so I would imagine there is not too much we can do. He still eats 2 meals a day with interest and walks but very slowly and sleeps alot. He paces at night for an hour or more and sometimes has anxiety and shakes. He has accidents with peeing at night now which he has never had. I get up with him to console him, it helps a bit.

Has anyone else gone thru this? Is there anything else I can do to help him?

Thanks for caring

 

Yes, I have been through this with a dog.    Prescription food, daily subq fluids, lots of prescription meds (medical and for anxiety).     Kept her comfortable for 2 more years.  Good days and bad days.    Until uremia set in.      Talk to your vet, come up with a treatment plan.

Edited October 29, 2018 by dog person

[Sam I Am]

I am so sorry to hear this...it’s always so heartbreaking to watch the decline. Having had dogs and horses throughout my life the only thing I can share is that it’s all about quality of life and a time to end suffering if it is obvious that he is not enjoying his life anymore.. It’s never gets easier. My thoughts are with you. 

[hheldorfer]

Nothing I can add; just love him.  Make the rest of his days as comfortable and enjoyable as possible.  Hugs to you.

[anniegirl]

Thank you for your kindness. It means a lot to me right now.

[Hillscreek]

Cannot offer advice on kidney failure. Only a hug or two and share how much we love our old dogs. Our hearts are with you.

[sanford]

I am so sorry to read this. Among other issues, I would worry about any pain he might be experiencing and I wonder if it is worth a call to the vet for reassurance, and perhaps a prescription for pain meds. Unless your vet has already addressed this with you, it couldn't hurt to ask, and I'm sure he would understand your concern. Sometimes, but not always, shivering is a reaction to pain.

Keeping you in my thoughts...

Edited October 30, 2018 by sanford

[anniegirl]

Thank you so much for sending your thoughts my way. I will call the vet to discuss....

[pkcrossley]

i'm very sorry to read this. for your boy to 16 you are obviously a caring and very successful cairn partner. kidney disease in humans and in animals can be alleviated but the course of the disease always depends on the severity. as everybody above said, dietary management (low protein), meds, sufficient but not excessive hydration, and water filtered to remove impurities or acidic elements (while perhaps adding a bit of alkaline) can all help. how much they help depends on the overall picture. i am hoping the best for you and your boy. you have done a great job. 

[anniegirl]

Hi!!! Thank you for your advice and kind words. We are keeping Banjo comfortable and so far his spirits are still good and he is still eating.

[pkcrossley]

also, i don't know what kind of attitudes your vet has, but some are willing to try "natural" aids in a case like this. for humans, pyroxidine (a B vitamin) and activated charcoal have been shown to help kidney function. i have no idea whether these substances are known to be harmful to dogs; but if not, your vet might have suggestions for how to dose them. 

probably your vet has explained that kidney disease is not a particularly painful condition. when toxins build up the main effects are drownsiness, which increases as the disease progresses and decreases if kidney function improves. complications like anemia, constipation, low blood sugar or dementia have their own problems, but kidney disease itself does not produce much primary pain. 

[anniegirl]

thank you for that. My main concern is that Banjo is not in pain. This would indeed explain his drowsiness though.

[Guest dog person]

Recent comment about kidney disease here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2014/09/evidence-update-azodyl-for-chronic-kidney-disease-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-122852

BTW:  Kidney disease causes nausea (the main symptom is poor appetite and refusal to eat) and pain, especially as the disease progresses.    Prescription meds are needed and very important toward providing comfort. 

My dog was on a synthetic narcotic towards the end (last year or more of her life).    It was necessary and effective.

I would not mess with homeopathic remedies.

Edited November 2, 2018 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

 

That is for whoever keeps giving me the arrow down symbol, lol

Maybe I don't agree with your opinions either.   

PS: There is a big difference between kidney disease and kidney failure.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by dog person

[Sam I Am]

Anniegirl given that your current veterinarian has not given any further suggestions in regards to treatments may I suggest an alternative view. British Columbia has many very qualified holistic veterinary practices that can help in the treatment and care  of your boy. When hitting a dead end with the usual conventional treatment of many stage end diseases alternative treatments can help in many ways. I am all for conventional medicine also but also in regards to alternative medicine which also offers so  much. What do you have to lose is a question I would ask myself given your current veterinarian. Holistic veterinary practices are not black magic as some individuals seem to think, but pretty much all the ones I know practice both conventional and traditional medicine.  These highly educated professionals can do a lot to help the suffering of animals where conventional medicine has hit a road block. Take a look at some of the practices in your province they jut might help your boy. Wishing you much luck and big hugs.http://www.civtedu.org/british-columbia/

[sanford]

1 hour ago, dog person said:

I would not mess with homeopathic remedies.

I agree with Terrier Lover. Even though I have a healthy skepticism, I would not discourage any person or pet, the supplemental use of holistic or alternative meds. Most docs are usually taught in med school that medicine is an art as well as a science. As much as we know about illness and disease, there is (too) much we don't. It seems compassionate to let folks who are faced with hard, or no choices, turn to methods that might offer them hope, no matter how slim, that they are at least doing something. If it were my pet, i'd want to give it my best try. Besides, when it comes to treatments: holistic, alternative, conventional, different folks, as well as pets, respond differently.

[pkcrossley]

homeopathy means something very specific, and is quite different from fortification with vitamins or other supplements that have proved effective (though that can mean in mice, or people, or dogs, etc). for stage 3 kidney disease, that includes calcitriol (a special form of D3). stage 3 kidney failure has protocols for management, and the goal is to prolong deterioration to stage 4. a special renal diet is essential, as it becomes a bit more complicated to properly balance calcium and phosphorus, which are essential to have, but tend to build up in cases of renal insufficiency to levels that can affect the functioning of heart, lungs, and brain. it is also to avoid complications that can indeed cause pain --gastrointestinal  problems, secondary effects of hypertension, constipation, and dangers of intestinal bleeding (much greater danger in stage 4 than in stage 3). your vet should be willing to take your pet's blood pressure on a regular basis. my comments are based on various experiences with very advanced CKD in cats, dogs and people. but useful reading is also here: https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/canine-chronic-kidney-diseasecurrent-diagnostics-goals-long-term-management/ and here: https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/AVA_website/pdfs/NSW_Division/VETS - Sheri Ross - Management of Chronic Kidney Disease.pdf. 

[karwask]

Hi All,

I know this tread is from awhile ago and I am asking as my guy, Jack, age just ready to be 14 a rescue, has also just been diagnosed with stage 3 chronic kidney disease himself. It's a long story but it all started a few weeks ago with having a bunch of teeth removed, then we discovered along the way, gall bladder about the go and another surgery within 4 days of the teeth. Good news, he is recovering well, bad news, I'm finding it very difficult to manage him and worry about how this will all unfold. 

Had started trying on the kidney diet food prior to all of this happening and after eating enthusiastically for a few weeks, would not touch the stuff. With the surgery and all, ended up with real turkey and chicken to get him eating again, which was touch and go, and he wasn't even interested in the old kibble that he used to scoff down enthusiastically before the kidney diet. So, it's a catch 22 that I will likely have to be dealing with till the end. If he's not eating, no way to administer medications to help with the CKD, any pain that comes up, nausea, etc. = this becomes unmanageable for me as it was after his dental surgery.  

I did consult with a non-traditional veterinary practitioner and started him a raw food diet. That was amazing! He immediately started to eat as usual twice a day. I was able to get some of the meds in his food and I was thrilled. But then, today, not interested in eating at all, throwing up bile (I assume to be expected), sleeping a lot, etc. She gave me some herbs to try out, what did I have to lose but, again, when he wouldn't eat, no way to get it in him. Now, I'm navigating working with the traditional vet and the non traditional one and I'm hoping I can consult with my traditional vet upon her return from vacation later this week to try to make a plan for best way forward and options for how I can manage Jack. 

So, my big concern is, as I said, my inability to manage him and the dire nature of the way this illness is likely to unfold. If I can't get him to eat, I also can't let him starve himself and endure the symptoms of the illness without medications. How is this going to go? I really, really do not want to have to be in a position to have to make the decision to euthanize Jack. 

When he was at the hospital, it was a teaching hospital in Corvallis, OR, wonderful place and they have so much expertise and things to offer, it did come up that a feeding tube can be put in place (of course another surgery would be required for this and who knows how many thousands more in dollars:( but that way, if he's not eating he can be fed and meds administered.

I don't want to put him through this but wonder if anyone has experience or thoughts about a feeding tube used this way? 

Lastly, I'm sure I'll be talking about what more I can do at home with my primary veterinarian as I know likely with dehydration, I will have to administer sub Q hydration but I don't know what else I might be able to do when medications need to be on board and to keep him eating. Ironically, I do have an appetite stimulant but he wouldn't take it without tricking him with food. 

thanks for listening and any thoughts/suggestions are much appreciated,

 

 

[Lupinegirl]

Will he drink broth? Beef or chicken broth can get some nutrients in him at least and it might be a little easier to syringe feed him a squirt of broth if he won’t get up and drink it like water.  Some medicine can be crushed into powder and mixed with liquid. 

I had trouble getting my fourteen year old guy to eat anything, even home cooked chicken.  He’d eat heartily for about two weeks and then suddenly decide nothing was appetizing. He threw up bile every nine hours that he went without eating and the last time his stomach got really upset, he had bile coming out the other end. He had really bad liver cirrhosis though.  

Is it Jack’s teeth that are keeping him from eating? If he seems like he’s interested in raw food or home cooked food and he seems hesitant to mouth it, maybe you could get some baby Orajel to rub on his gums to ease any pain?  (My dog loved hamburgers. That was one of the few things I could get him to take interest in. I guess because it smelled more appetizing than boiled, baked, or sautéed chicken? My guy even refused fragrant things like bacon. I was pretty much beside myself back in late May when I thought he was going to starve himself, but he perked back up and ate heartily up until his last day...) 

[karwask]

Thanks all, will look over attachments for ideas and information. 

Thanks Lupinegirl, good suggestions and thoughts. Just tried broth and so far, not working but I suspect this is and will be a moving target and I should just keep on trying things. 

Yes, seems to be eating things for awhile and then suddenly loses interest. Yes, bile every 9 hours or so, throwing up. Yes, he also has liver issues. 

Good point about teeth. After this procedure and the time that has elapsed, he should not have any mouth discomfort at this juncture in time, however, when I was trying to get him to eat the kidney kibble and his old kibble, along with broth and cut up chicken/turkey, he did seem hesitant about the kibble part as if maybe his mouth is still bothering him so will try to keep that in mind. 

Good to hear that your guy was able to keep on eating till the end. This is what I'm worried about. 

[Sam I Am]

Perhaps try a bit of scrambled eggs...dogs even if not overly thrilled about eating seem to like them. Also a bit of cottage cheese? I think at this point he gets to eat what he wants.

Has your vet given anything for nausea as kidney disease seems to have that effect.?

Edited June 25, 2019 by Sam I Am

[karwask]

Sam I Am,

Thanks, those are great suggestions that I have not though about. And/but let's see what the vet says as she is still devoted to me trying to feed kidney friendly items. I haven't figured out, yet, if this is the moment to just say f--k it, just getting him to eat at all is the goal now! 

[hheldorfer]

20 hours ago, karwask said:

Sam I Am,

Thanks, those are great suggestions that I have not though about. And/but let's see what the vet says as she is still devoted to me trying to feed kidney friendly items. I haven't figured out, yet, if this is the moment to just say f--k it, just getting him to eat at all is the goal now! 

I'd go with the "f--k it" mentality and give him whatever he will eat at this point.  

We have a dog with Cushing's (Ziggy) and have had to get creative to give him his meds.  We've had some success mixing his meds with pumpkin, mashed sweet potato, or applesauce.  Also used chicken broth in a pipette a few times.  

One other possibility to consider for both pain control and appetite is medical marijuana.  You can get it in a paste form (packaged in a syringe).  It apparently tastes quite bitter but, if you're lucky, you can bury it in a small piece of food/treat and the dog will swallow it whole.  Your vet can probably give you an idea on dosage.  Only a very, very small amount goes a long way.

[karwask]

21 hours ago, Sam I Am said:

Perhaps try a bit of scrambled eggs...dogs even if not overly thrilled about eating seem to like them. Also a bit of cottage cheese? I think at this point he gets to eat what he wants.

Has your vet given anything for nausea as kidney disease seems to have that effect.?

Thanks, tried scrambled eggs today and he ate 1/2 of one egg but still not eating anything else. I'm sure when I connect with my vet tomorrow we will be talking about nausea and/but the catch 22 if he's not eating, how to administer medications for it and it's not nausea as we typically think about it, it's the poisons building up in his body and I'm not sure meds help with that but will find out. 

[karwask]

56 minutes ago, hheldorfer said:

I'd go with the "f--k it" mentality and give him whatever he will eat at this point.  

We have a dog with Cushing's (Ziggy) and have had to get creative to give him his meds.  We've had some success mixing his meds with pumpkin, mashed sweet potato, or applesauce.  Also used chicken broth in a pipette a few times.  

One other possibility to consider for both pain control and appetite is medical marijuana.  You can get it in a paste form (packaged in a syringe).  It apparently tastes quite bitter but, if you're lucky, you can bury it in a small piece of food/treat and the dog will swallow it whole.  Your vet can probably give you an idea on dosage.  Only a very, very small amount goes a long way.

Thanks, do have pumpkin and will consider trying out all of the above. And, I do have some doggy medical marijuana in the fridge, salmon flavor that I can use. My vet is loathe to condone such things, it not being evidence based and all and not recognized in traditional veterinary medicine but at this point in time, no harm in trying and might help. Thx for reminding me I had that:).