Searching for Information on Coat Genetics

[Diane Jessup]

Hello!

I am a small, dedicated fancier of the cairn terrier. I have always been involved with performance dogs, and that is my interest - not the show ring.

I am currently working with a canine genetic company on trying to figure out if there are DNA markers to identify the correct, hard, water proof, coconut-mat type coat which cairns had when first brought to this country.  I find that almost all the dogs I see at the shows have fine, thin, wispy hair, the kind that if you run your hand up their back, stays UP instead of falling back down. This type of coat is NOT waterproof, and it also is a haven for burrs.

I am at this time running three DNA tests on two of my dogs, one with correct coat, one with the coat more often seen in the show ring, where trimming is desired to "shape" the dog.   One is on the L Locus, plus two others.

I am having a really difficult time finding serious information on this subject.  The CTCA won't let you be a member unless you know two of their members for over a year, and as I live in the middle of absolutely nowhere in eastern WA, that's not going to happen! So, any educational information they have is not available to me.  I'm by no means a genetics expert, so things would need to be in "laymen" terms.  :  )

Is there anyone out there willing to share links on any information about the inheritance of long/soft coat versus short/useful coat?  Or who are willing to email with me about it?  I certainly appreciate any help on this.  I am committed to producing health tested, correct coated, wonderful temperamented cairns!

Diane

[bradl]

If the CTCA has any information or literature on coat genetics related to expression of desirable harshness they are hiding it from members too, or at least not sharing it on their website. 

A marker or markers would certainly be helpful. For most breeders trying to improve the proportion of correct coats in their lines it seems to be one of those areas where reliance is on pedigree knowledge in order to identify and breed into lines with a high predominance of good coats. 

It's further complicated because some coats can be coaxed into pretty good condition by being rigorously worked. Those coats require constant rolling; some really good natural coats seem more tolerant of neglect while still remaining harsh.  

A thick harsh full coat is a thing of beauty, no doubt.

[Diane Jessup]

Hi Bradl. One thing I feel strongly about is this:  you would not have had hard bitten Scottish farmers "rolling" their dog's coat!  A cairn must be born with a correct coat, not plucked and fussed over like a poodle to get a coat that LOOKS useful.  The only grooming I do to my cairns is brushing with a furminator, to take out loose undercoat. I certainly don't fuss with their coats as they are, above all else, rodent control farm dogs here. I take that back, I did have to clip the hair off my female's armpits and stomach as her more "open" coat attracted burrs, something my male (with correct coat) does not.

In my research I see that breeders were concerned with losing correct "weather proof" coats as far back as 1890!  They suggested breeding a dog with a softer coat to a SHORT HAIRED TERRIER to get the correct crisp, waterproof coat. What a far cry from the show breeders who want maximum "furnishings" (fluff) on the head as they turn cairns into cartoon terriers, like Westies.

If I get any useful results from my DNA testing of my dogs and litter, I will share it here.  I'm sure there are others out there as interested in correct coat as myself.

Diane Jessup

www.DanBarRanch.com

[Hillscreek]

Agree Diane,

Very unlikely ancient working cairns would be fussed over coat wise - or any other wise actually. The ones with the best (harsh) coats for the weather would useful and kept.

Judging by the many posts on this site regarding coat care the modern cairn comes with all kinds of coats. Since most are not working dogs but pets this is not as crucial as it would be if they had jobs like your dogs or the ancient dogs. Old paintings often show cairns with shorter coats than many today. These would not need constant care.

As to the favored "Westie" look. One has to grieve for the poor Westies too.

Very interested to hear of DNA results.

[Diane Jessup]

Hi Hillscreek. I will post here when I get results back. What I have done is run 3 DNA tests for coat factors which are not usually associated with cairns, according to the DNA outfit. This will be interesting, as I have one "useful" coated cairn, and one "soft" coated cairn, though she does not have the long, silky flowing coat you see sometimes.  As well I am sending in for the same three tests on three of their offspring. Depending on what I find, I may run one other offspring, who was the only one with a "useful" coat in the first litter. That is all I will be able to do for at least a year, as Wee Bonnie won't be having any more pups for at least a year.

In the meantime, I will be going to shows and earth dog events and hoping to find someone breeding "useful" coated cairns who is willing to sell a pup.  I have also expanded my search to the UK, but am rather horrified to find the same long, soft coats are prevalent over there as well.

If anyone has any experience with this issue, hope they will pipe up and help with the discussion! : )
Diane

[Diane Jessup]

 

Wee Mikey, useful coat

 

[Diane Jessup]

Wee Bonnie as a little pup.

[Diane Jessup]

This is not my dog, but this is the long, silky coat, absolutely not weatherproof, that I am seeing more and more often.

[Diane Jessup]

This historical picture looks to me to be a useful coat.

 

[Diane Jessup]

And this old photo. Would this dog even get a glance in the show ring today?  Probably not. Not "poofy" enough.

 

[Sam I Am]

So many breeds now in the show ring are all...well for show. Not what they were intentionally meant to do in their working lives. Worse than just appearance are the many many genetic diseases that are being propagated because of appearance. This is not only been happening in the dog world but also the horse world. If any one is interested here is another example of people continuing the breeding of form over function. http://www.foundationhorses.com/the-impressive-flaw

I am also,pretty sure that poodles in centuries past didn't have those crazy looking fluffed up coats while out hunting! 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Terrier lover

[Hillscreek]

Love the pics of your cairns. The old pics show how tastes have changed. Rough, shaggy, foxy and small seem not to be in favor currently.

When I looked for a cairn I avoided the show world - too much of the beauty pageant, too much of the politicing etc. Agree with Terrier lover - Eagerness for pretty takes precedence too often over health.

It took me a long time till I found a breeder right for me. I live in a high puppy mill State. I did not want to buy without 'hands on' the pup and a chance to see the location and the parents and talk with the breeder. Eventually I found what I wanted.

My breeder occasionaly had "show quality" pups she said but wasn't interested in showing. Had cairns for many years.They took their cairns horse camping. Her dogs were not fixed up for me to see. They were in their natural state for hunting in the barns and running rough country with the horses.

Just because a person doesn't show doesn't mean they don't breed for quality, test their pups, know the pedigrees and history of their dogs.

However I would not dismiss all show breeders - it may be possible to find one who has what you are looking for. And barn hunts, earth dog trials, luring - any of these might turn up a surprise.

Whatever the coat though, it seems almost impossible to breed out the cairn spirit and independence - thank goodness!

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[sanford]

I agree with most of the comments re the downside of breeding for shows and I've heard similar reports from folks who participate in that world. 

As stated, coats vary from one cairn to another, genetics playing a role in the results. But a lot of space has been devoted here, diagramming how the coats grow in, with old hairs ready to be released from the follicles through stripping, plucking, resulting in harsh, rough coats. My own exposure to cairns has only been at a few regional shows, Westminster, and random encounters with numerous city cairns. Upon questioning the owners, the ones with the "thick, harsh full coats that are a thing of beauty", invariably have turned out to have been hand-stripped, plucked, rolled. Cairns I see with "fine, thin, wispy hair" are usually reported to have been clippered.

Disclaimer: This is just my own unscientific observation.

P.S. I understood that cairn ancestors on the farms, patrolling the rock crevices would leave good amounts of their coats snagged in the brambles and underbrush... Nature's way of stripping old, dead coat to keep the skin healthy and make room for new coat growth. If Ruffy is any example, he seems to take particular pleasure, going out of his way to repeatedly scrape his back along the underside of bushes and low-growing woody shrubs in the park.

[bradl]

For better or worse — and I readily admit there's definitely some 'worse' that goes along with it — if you like Cairns that look like Cairns I would not dismiss the "show world" out of hand. 

The "beauty pageant" aspect is certainly part of dog shows, particularly in the Group rings, although that seems to be primarily for bragging rights and supporting the Industrial Show Complex.

The real work of dog shows is done down in the classes, where breeders hold themselves accountable for breeding to type. Yes, yes, "type" is itself a subject of dispute, but at least people have something specific in mind (and hopefully it's a plausible interpretation of the breed standard).  

The ring is an extension of the whelping box and helps breeders pierce the rosy haze of kennel blindness.

Exhibitors may "foof" their dogs' heads up or style them or move them in a way they hope will please a judge but all those dogs are still being seen and evaluated by every serious breeder on site and against more utilitarian criteria than whether the coat was blow-dried. 

[Sam I Am]

I would like to see a lot more rigid rules on genetic testing for all of the dog breeds. Everyone loves a beautiful dog but obviously that beauty has to go beyond appearance. After watching the BBC documentary on what is happening so sadly to so many breeds, I was determined to the best of my ability to find a breeder that would give me hopefully a healthy pup, a breeder who not only bred for "type" but also for health.  

For those of you who have a bit of time watch this video. It's really heart breaking plus of course a political mine field also. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/ Be warned that a lot of this is very upsetting to watch.

Brad if you find this to graphic or controversial please feel free to delete.   

Edited August 5, 2017 by Terrier lover

[bradl]

That's one of the things that attracted me to this breed. They have no extreme characteristics (other than, apparently mischief). No docked tails, no exaggerated features. A frequently used adjective in the standard is "medium."

Genetic testing does require relevant tests be available. The national club provides a list of Suggested Minimal Health Testing Guidelines.

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We are fortunate in our breed to have a lot of breeders and owners who believe in well-rounded dogs. Following the lead of the Border Terriers the national club approved some years ago a Working Dog class for specialties and has incorporated a lot of dog activities into its Versatility program structure.

They have stopped short of requiring a working title *before* recognizing a championship though. 

Sorry, this is wandering far afield from coat type. Apologies to OP.

[Diane Jessup]

Thanks all for the replies. Glad to see there are fellow cairn fanciers interested in maintaining the breed as it was/should be.

I have NOTHING against show breeders, per se.  I would love to show my dogs, however I can assure you that my correct coated dog absolutely would go no where (I did show him once).  He is a bit long in body for what they like in the ring, and I know that counted against him, but he was the ONLY dog at the show with a water proof coat.  The rest all had upstanding hair. The thing is, you cant make waterproof hair stand up straight.

I am patiently waiting for the DNA test results. Meanwhile I am searching everywhere for a bitch pup with a correct coat. I am looking at show breeders, puppyfind.com, you name it!  I've even been searching the UK.  I plan to attend some dog shows the next few months so I can see some dogs up close.

In the meantime I am training dogs for barn hunt and earth dog tests.  :  )  If anyone has any suggestions on breeders with hard coated dogs, please let me know!
Diane Jessup

[Sam I Am]

Diane I am not sure what you mean by a breeder that has hard coated dogs? Can you explain the difference please. My 4 month old SAM has a flat none puffy coat that is very bristly. Is that what you mean?

[hheldorfer]

Neither here nor there - and certainly not something that will contribute to your quest - but Buffy has a good, waterproof coat and she probably came from a puppy mill originally.  (We adopted her from a shelter.)  The hair on her head is silky but the rest of her is covered in a nice, hard, "working" coat.  She goes out in the rain, comes back inside and with a few hard shakes she's dry within minutes.  

When I watched the WKC dog show after adopting Buffy I was somewhat taken aback at the appearance of the champion Cairns being shown.  They were so tidy and perfect.   I looked at them . . . looked at her . . . and thought "You're never going to look like that, honey, but I like you the way you are!".

[Diane Jessup]

LOL! Yes, and I believe the orig standard called for the dog to appear "untidy" or some such.  They did NOT want them to be a pampered and "poofed" up show dog. I just don't understand the thinking behind breeders AND JUDGES when they put up soft coated terriers. I don't get it.  And yet most act like they are "guardians" of the breed. Ugh.

Diane

[Diane Jessup]

"Terrier Lover", if you read the beginning of this thread, you will see that I described how a hard "coconut-mat" coat, with stiff, weatherproof hair is the correct coat for a cairn. This type of coat resists being "fluffed up". You can run your hand up the hair on the back, but it won't really stay straight up. Also, it is NOT "silky". That is the main difference.  These dogs generally are not as "showy" looking as the softer coated dogs with great fluffy ruffs around their heads like the way they show Westies now.

The easiest way to tell if a dog has a "working jacket" appears to be taking them through brambles/stickers and seeing if the stickers stick. Stickers stick to soft hair, but are rejected by hard coat. Hope that helps.

Diane

[Sam I Am]

Thanks for the info. I have a pup with a hard stiff coat that lies flat. People comments how bristly he feels when they pet him.

[kieiras mom]

Love this information. Keira is not soft and fluffy,nor very hard coated, but she  is all cairn in her response to life in general AS far as I am concerned she is perfect in every way

[kjwarnold]

Some coats do change.  Kirby always had the type of coat you're describing, hard, flat lying and "waterproof."  I handstripped him on and off and the coat stayed in great shape.  There came a time when I fell behind on grooming him (I was ill) and then he developed Addison's disease.  One or the other, or a combination of both caused his coat to become more wispy and soft.

I've been working on him this year but I don't think I'm going to get it fully back.  His jacket is improving but I think the legs are stuck with feathery fringe.  My best guess is I got behind and then the Prednisone he has to take has affected the coat.  I'm sad because he really did have a nice, harsh coat.  

Now Phinney has a great coat and I've been keeping up with that.  What DNA results are you looking for?  We recently did a DNA test on him, so I can look at the results to see if we have what you're looking for.

[Diane Jessup]

Hi all. Today I got the results back on the initial DNA testing I am doing on cairn coats!!!! I'm very excited!

The test was on the "L" locus, which controls long or short coat. I am not sure which is dominant or recessive yet, in the cairn, but my guess is the short is recessive.  To make things clear, think of "long" as soft, wispy coat, what the old timers called "open coat", not weatherproof. The easiest way to identify this coat is if the dog has soft, long, fringe of hair on the ears.   The "short" coat here refers to the "cocoanut mat" type coat, shorter, harsher, weatherproof and repels stickers. These dogs have much less fine, long hair on their ears. They DO NOT need to be stripped, rolled, what ever to have a proper coat. It is the original working terrier coat, because we all know those old Scotts did NOT sit around fussing with the terrier's coat! LOL!

Also, remember that in breeding other terrier breeds, such as fox terrier, jack Russell, etc, it was always suggested that to improve a wire haired dog's coat if it was getting to long and soft was to breed to a short coat.

Now, the results I got was this: My bitch Bonnie has two copies of "LH" (longhair) at the L locus, as I imagine most cairns today do. I am thinking the harsher coat, perhaps being recessive, is being lost?

My male, Wee Mikey, has a "LH" and a "SH" gene at the L locus (short hair).

What this means for me is that if I am VERY VERY VERY lucky, my bitch pup will test out to have inherited a SH from Mikey.  However, I am a belt and suspender woman, so I am making arrangements to breed Mikey back to his mother who demonstrates the correct coat, as this will give me a much better chance of getting pups with SH genes.  I have no fear of this type of inbreeding, as I am a student of serious inbreeding and it has served me very well in the past.  As I breed only dogs with clear DNA/OFA testing, I am not doubling up on any known concerns.  And, in the meantime, my search goes on for outstanding quality pups with at least one SH gene.

I fully expect some show folks to flip out over this information, and that's fine. I've been in dogs a long time and it doesn't bother me. I do what I feel is best for the breed, and for me, being as Natural as possible, as close to the original standard as possible, and as healthy as possible is what counts - not pretty dogs with ribbons. 

I am very excited about this work I am beginning and hope to hook up with others who are perhaps looking into the same issue. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask away.  Again, if you were wanting to get YOUR dogs tested, I used Paw Print Genetics, Spokane, WA and ask for the "L Locus" test. They also offer the Cairn Terrier health panel at a very reasonable price.

Diane Jessup