Searching for Information on Coat Genetics

[Sam I Am]

I have to respectfully disagree with you in regards to the practice of inbreeding. The road to many health issues that lead to eventually creating many tragic results

An interesting but sad history of the Scotty. The result of a small gene pool. https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ca/2008/09/great-scott-thats-good-breed-health.html

Edited August 17, 2017 by Terrier lover

[Hillscreek]

Breeding of very close relatives increases or even may double the inheritances but it is not possible to know which will emerge. Great qualities can emerge and equally, undesirable effects can show. In earlier days breeders culled the pups they did not need /want. Nowadays most every pup is kept and sold and often bred. So along with the good inheritances come the bad. Most all intentional breedings - 'line breeding' - are of fairly close relatives.

Dogs are pets now and pretty tends to be the biggest requirement.  It seems to me that the desirable qualities are those which are currently in favor at the time the dogs are bred e.g. this or that color of coat, shape of head etc etc. These have changed over time from what's needed in a sound working dog to what is the current favorite look in the show ring. Often one can see two kinds of several breeds e.g. the show Golden and the leaner narrower working dog - and the same for Labs and many other breeds. For cairns one might see the same in the future. A working type dog and a show dog. One whose hair is harsh and lays flat in a protective cover over the inner coat and one whose hair sticks out and or hangs around them.

Breeders please don't breed out that smart, independent personality!

 

 

 

 

 

[Diane Jessup]

I have found that, without exception, those who worry about inbreeding practices are those which have no actual experience breeding that way. Those of us who understand it, use it, such as the pioneers who have given us just about every useful domestic animal we have, know there is nothing to "fear".  In-breeding does not "produce" any faults or issues not already in the line. It gives you what you have. And, it is THE ONLY WAY to "clean up" issues in a line, as you can breed it out far easier than if you just hide your head in the sand and continue to send bad genes forward by scatter breeding. Scatterbreeding doesn't rid the line of an issue, it just passes it along, unseen, until it pops up suddenly. 

Without doubt, the novice breeder should not inbreed unless they are willing to spend the extra money to do ALL DNA/OFA testing available.  This, I am willing to do.  I feel because of this, I produce better pups than someone who scatterbreeds but fails to health/soundness test their dogs.

All said and done, a breeder should do what they feel comfortable with. The German Shepherd Dog is one of the least inbred breeds out there, and has SO many issues. The American pit bull (real ones, not the big, fat blue dogs you see these days) are fantastically closely bred and can be proven to be one of the most hardy and healthy breeds going.  I recommend those who dislike inbreeding or tightline breeding simply stick to scatterbred dogs and hope for the best.

 

[Diane Jessup]

Hillscreek said: Dogs are pets now and pretty tends to be the biggest requirement.

This is sadly true, and yet it doesn't have to be!

Breeding for "pretty" has, for a fact, ruined EVERY breed of dog we have.  I will NEVER breed for "pretty". That is why I am researching what has happened to correct coat of our cairns.  One important fact: the longhaired dogs suffer much more from the weeds and burrs. If I can breed a dog who does NOT have to suffer from simply walking through a field - I will do so! : )
Diane

[bradl]

17 minutes ago, Diane Jessup said:

I have found that, without exception, those who worry about inbreeding practices are those which have no actual experience breeding that way.

Hardly, although I get your point.

[Diane Jessup]

Hi all,

Got back the DNA reports on my two dogs. Interestingly, the "curly v straight" and the "furnishings v no furnishings" were the same for both dogs. So far, the only difference has been the "short hair versus long hair" with the hard coated, waterproof dog showing one "long hair" gene and the softer coated, not so correct coated bitch showing two "short hair" genes. Weird, huh?

I am sending DNA on three of the pups for all 3 tests. Results to follow.

As always, if anyone out there has a dog with a tight, waterproof, burr proof coat like MIkey's, please contact me.

Diane

[Lynn in TN]

This is a very interesting topic. I would love to see a Cairn that looks like the ones in the old pictures. In my area I do not see Cairn Terriers at all, except for the ones I have. Their coat is not as harsh as I would like.  But they are the  best little pals I have ever had.

[Diane Jessup]

Hello everyone.  Here is an update...

I took Wee Mikey to a cairn terrier grooming seminar put on by the local AKC cairn club.  I left him in the vehicle, as he looked SO completely different from any of the dogs there ( a mixture of champions and pets) with his short, hard coat, that I begin to fear he was a mutant.  I asked a nice club member to come to the car and see him. She did, and asked me to bring him inside for the club members to see.  I did, and was astounded when they became quite excited and said that his was a coat "breeders would die for".  They also liked his build, stating his nose was a bit long, but they didn't think his body was too long, something I had thought all along (that he was a bit long in body).

Anyway, I was quite surprised to hear at this seminar that "cairns require a lot of grooming" as I have never groomed Mikey, except to run a Furminator through him maybe twice a year to get out some dead undercoat.  I certainly don't strip him or anything.  Which goes back to why I thought he had the "original" coat, as I can't see busy Scottish farmers "rolling" the barn dog's coat to keep it tidy! LOL

So, I am now on a world wide hunt to try and find a female cairn with at least one "LH" gene, preferably two!  I was really aghast at how long and silky most of the cairn coats are around here... their ears look like Papillion ears if not trimmed! And their fur is like a maltese.  I really hope all you reading this can help me locate a well tempered bitch (I'll do the health testing) to breed to Mike.  To see pics of Mike, you can look on my webpage DanBarRanch dot com.

Thank you!

[bradl]

Breeding arrangements (stud service,  bitch leasing, mate-finding) are in the forbidden zone for Cairn Talk. I'd suggest an alternative forum where the focus is more specifically on breeding, perhaps Cairn Terrier HBJS (Health, Breeding, Judging, and Standard). There is global participation including breeders from the country of origin. 

[Diane Jessup]

Whoops! I'm sorry, my bad!  I'm just excited and totally forgot. Please forgive.

 

[bradl]

Thanks for understanding  

[sanford]

Many breeds seem to come in a variety of coat types: long, short, curly, wire, etc., for example. Not to mention different sizes within the same breed: giant, standard, mini, teacup, etc. All are judged separately within their own coat standard or size standard. I have no idea how these "sub" categories arose, but is it possible that cairns might eventually be divided into 2 distinct, separate coat classes?

This discussion piqued my curiosity as to how these many breed varieties became accepted and classified as separate and distinct for judging/breeding purposes. We've frequently discussed on this site that cairns were considered to be the original ancestors of Scotties and Westies and that the white and black pups were split off and bred separately. Perhaps soft-coated cairns will also be split off from the family tree to form another branch someday?🙀 

(As for me, I've already shed too many leaves, so I can no longer follow the intricacies family trees, breeding lines, etc.)!

Edited October 19, 2017 by sanford

[bradl]

14 minutes ago, sanford said:

... is it possible that cairns might eventually be split into 2 distinct, separate coat classes?

Geez I should hope not.

[Sam I Am]

A Cairn is a Cairn is a Cairn. Long hair, soft hair, coarse  hair, fluffy ears, I love them all. Show standards seem to be an evolving thing, for me the most important thing is to breed a healthy animal. A big gene pool makes for a far healthier animal. After all variety is the spice of life.

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Terrier lover

[Diane Jessup]

Variety may be the spice of life, but breeders of purebred dogs need to respect the standard, or else just breed mixed breeds.  A person has a reasonable expectation to get a pup that will grown into an individual that resembles the written standard for the breed.  As a 20 year veteran of animal control, this is one reason I feel so strongly about people doing their research into which breed fits their desires and needs.  I feel a lot of pressure to produce Cairns with Mikey's hard, care-free, Teflon coat.  There is NO reason why an earth dog should have the coat of a lap dog like the Maltese.  I'm rather surprised and disappointed that so many "big time" breeders seem to have NO interest in the fact that the coat of this breed has changed drastically away from the standard.

I have located ONE other cairn with what appears to be a correct, weather proof coat. I tried to talk to the owner/breeder, however her only concern was that "she can't sell me a dog because I'm in the same state and might interfere with her puppy sales"!  Good Lord!! I certainly know where HER interest lies...

I have contacted the Cairn Terrier Club of America, of Scotland and of the UK, regarding this issue.  Nothing...  Very discouraging. 

I do think a BIG part of the problem is that people only know what they know... and if they have never seen a true hard coat, then what they have they may feel IS a hard coat, when, in fact, it is not.   I'm willing to spend money I don't have on DNA testing, you would think the clubs would be interested. 

I've always supported ethical breeders of purebred dogs.  I don't support breeding for malformations (like too short nose on Boston terriers, etc), for "rare" colors, "rare" sizes, etc.  To me, that is simply a sign of $$$ breeders.

Well, sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest!  I hope that at some point those producing cairns will take a long, hard look at coat, and at what they can do to correct the issues.

Diane, Wee Mikey, Wee Bonnie and Wee Annie

 

[Hillscreek]

Standards in almost every breed have been altered, changed, modified as the years go by. Agree with TerrierLover. What is deemed "correct" in one period is not accepted in another. In addition standards are not always adhered to in the ring - cairns are a good example today.

I doubt if one of the cairns you see in pics prior to show ring days or even the early show champions would be acceptable today and probably vice versa too.

As an aside I can say that when I went to look for a cairn terrier a few years ago I was surprised to see how different they looked from the ones I remembered from my youth in UK fifty or more years ago. So much bigger and with a lot more hair. One thing did seem the same in general - the feisty, bold, fun loving temperament.

 

 

 

 

[bradl]

The CTCA used to have a good page that compared the historical standards but they let it go to h*ll and never repaired it. It worked when I made it    One interesting bit from 1921 and 1925 versions is this (emphasis mine):

Quote

Coat: Very important. Must be double with profuse,  harsh, but not coarse outer coat and short, close furry under   coat. Head to be well furnished. Color any except white. Black   points typical.

I am not an authority so can't really describe it, but I've been led to believe there is a difference between a "wire" coat and a "harsh" coat, and a lot of the coats that are being disparaged are in fact harsh, albeit not wire. What does coarse mean? I dunno.  I have a dog with a tragically incorrect soft cottony coat (Stella) so I for sure know what a terrible coat is  

Some historical Cairns and their coats. I'm seeing plenty of harsh coats.

That coat is not so different than many today.

I believe Splinters could compete today. Brindie below is probably my personal ideal. I always thought our Barley (1994) looked very similar. No doubt that's the basis of my preference  

A Cairn coat from the '20s:

 

 

 

[bradl]

I found an archived version of the historical standards... https://web.archive.org/web/20111006125207/http://www.cairnterrier.org/standard/historical

 

[kjwarnold]

You’re right, I remember your Barley pics and that old dog looks very similar!

[Diane Jessup]

Thanks, those old photos are awesome! 

Of importance to me is that no one take what I am talking about PERSONALLY!!!!  A dog can't help what coat it is born with, and I, too, own a dog with a coat which is NOT waterproof.  "I love all cairns!

However, the CTCA has, as its statement of purpose  "The objectives of the Cairn Terrier Club of America are to encourage and promote quality in the purebred breeding of the old working terrier of Skye and the West Highlands now known as the Cairn Terrier".  So, I don't think "changing with current fads and conditions" is really what they have signed on to do.

The cairn comes from an extremely cold and wet climate.  For this reason, the original standard said, plainly, "Coat to be harsh, resisting rain."

So every time a judge puts up a silky dog, he/she is forsaking the very foundation of the breed.  They are taking a working terrier and making it a parlor lap dog.   WHY is that important? I can't explain that to you - you either get breeding to standard or you don't.

MY PERSONAL goal is to produce Cairn terriers which can function as they were meant to be. Living on a farm, I have a constant rodent problem. My dogs have free access to the house, but they MUCH prefer to spend the day outside, looking for rodents. My poor bitch, Bonnie, with her less than perfect coat comes in drenched when it rains and full of stickers always. The male comes in dry as a bone and with not burr one.  For me, correct coat is a matter of being humane to the dogs. 

Again, I sure need help researching this. If there is ANYONE out there who can help me look for current dogs with correct coat so I can attempt to figure out the genetics on it, I would sure appreciate it.  I had hoped the Cairn Club here or in the UK would be interested, but alas... too busy winning ribbons with their silky dogs. :  (

Last note: The coat I am talking about is NOT "wirey".It is "hard".  In fact, it is rather straight.  If you push it up out of place, it will quickly fall back into place when you remove your hand. That is one way to tell. Also, you can tell if the hair on the front legs is really thick and SHORT. 

Thanks all!
Diane