Tough Day for Addie

[_whits_]

I will preface this by saying that --based on multiple checks by myself -- Addie is not injured. I'm hoping to have my dad the vet check her mouth today but I can't find any obvious wounds and she did let me check her neck and mouth a few times yesterday.

I was taking Addie for a potty break around the apartment complex yesterday around 5pm. The building is quite large and has lots of entrances and exits and many grassy areas. As we've just barely started our big loop, I see a lady walking around the corner with her border collie and similarly colored mix. I've only seen these dogs once before; it was a couple days ago coming out of a different door and they growled at Addie and their owner walked them in the other direction.

Yesterday the lady was walking the dogs in my general direction. They appeared quite aggravated, but Addie and I were a fair distance away at the bottom of a large hill (the dogs were at the top) and we paused to figure out what direction they were ultimately headed in so we could go the opposite way. 

In what felt like it was happening in slow motion but without me having any ability to react quickly, both dogs overpowered their owner and tore their leashes out of her hand. As the mix raced snarling and growling at Addie, the owner grabbed the collie's collar but was quickly overpowered again and then the second dog started barreling toward us aggressively as well. The owner stood still at the place where she lost hold of the leashes, yelling at them to come back, but they weren't listening and the owner wasn't getting any closer to them as they surrounded Addie and I with teeth bared. 

It all happened so fast I couldn't react until they'd already made contact with Addie. Addie was snarling too at this point. All I could do (there wasn't even room to reach down in this mass of angry fur) was pull as hard as I could on Addie's leash straight up (she wears the Julius K9 harness) and reach under her as she emerged from the pile. I shielded her body from the two dogs, still waiting for the owner to do anything other than call their names. I couldn't even run because they had me surrounded. 

Thankfully, the dogs did not attempt to hurt me so my human shield protected Addie in what felt like minutes as the owner still didn't do anything but call their names. The collie eventually went back to the owner but the mix was still trying to get to Addie, although not attacking me. FINALLY the owner grabbed the mix's leash and pulled it away. I stumbled off as fast as I could with Addie still in my arms as being on the leashes seemed to re-anger the dogs as they began yanking on their leashes and growling in our direction. Last I saw, the lady was struggling to keep the dogs' leashes while she yelled a single, "Sorry!"

As soon as I got in the building, I stopped by the entrance to do a quick check to make sure there wasn't any bleeding. The dogs looked like they were trying to make contact with their teeth, but it seems like Addie's yak hair protected her. She was clearly shaken and scared and kept licking her jowls so I did a quick check of her teeth to make sure there was no bleeding, which there wasn't. 

I was going to stop by the front desk to report what happened, but the office was closed. 

When Addie and I made it to our apartment, I gave her a more thorough once-over. I checked her a third time last night by brushing her hair to make sure I didn't miss anything and re-checking her mouth, which she is still licking like something is off. I haven't found any wounds. 

Little Addie has stayed very close to me since this happened and got very very nervous at our last potty break of the night when she saw Penny, a friendly dog who she usually plays with. Addie's been acting more tired and needy than usual. 

It was so scary and I'm so grateful that Addie appears physically okay and I'm so mad that people have and walk aggressive dogs that they can't control, especially in a communal living environment like an apartment. 

[Kathryn]

That is so so scary -- and particularly scary because the dogs' owner was so negligent. Surely she has witnessed this behavior in her dogs before - you cannot be the first. When that office opens up, you march in there and report her. And if you get no attention, it is time to call animal control in your area. If the owner cannot even hang onto her dogs' leashes, and she knows they can be aggressive, she needs to at least participate in some serious training, get gentle leader leashes and maybe even muzzles. She needs to monitor those dogs carefully. Perhaps she should move to a place where she has a secure fenced yard for them...I am furious about this for you....

SO sorry to hear that this has been traumatic for Addie too. Is it possible that, in the fray, Addie might have chipped a tooth or perhaps torn a little of her gum?  You are lucky to have a vet in the family to check her out.

Let us all know how this goes. No one needs this kind of worry during the holidays -- and you and Addie got more than your share of worry this year already...

Give her a hug from me, and a woo-woo from Oban. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kathryn

[sanford]

I get very angry when I read about these situations and I agree with Kathryn that you should (must) report this, for the sake of safety for Addie and others as well.

Some time back, Ruffy and I had an identical experience. As was the case with Addie, Ruffy had no visible harm, but because he wasn't acting right I had the vet check him out and he diagnosed muscle pull/strain as the cause of Ruffy's discomfort which was treated with an anti-inflammatory injection and a short course of oral meds. A checkup with your vet might help to ease your concern for Addie

Hope she continues to recover and is back to normal soon!

Edited December 13, 2016 by sanford

[hheldorfer]

My heart started racing while reading your story.  I can say I know EXACTLY how you felt, having gone through this with Buffy.  It is a paralyzing and terrifying experience that is hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through it.

First:  Thank God Addie is OK.  I agree that she needs a thorough check from Grandpa, though.  After Buffy's first attack we thought she only had two wounds but our vet found many more that were completely hidden by her thick hair.  If Grandpa finds any injuries, photograph them at once.

Second:  Report this woman and her dogs ASAP, before this happens to anyone else.  Report her to the building management, report the incident to animal control and report the incident to the police.  Seriously.  The woman obviously cannot (and will not) control her dogs, both of which are capable of inflicting serious damage on another dog or person.  As long as she is around and there is a chance of you running into her and her dogs, you will be on edge every time you walk out the door, and Addie will know it.  

Third:  Are you sure *you* are OK?  I know you are very shaken up.  Go see Grandpa and have Addie checked out.  Buy some pepper spray (or whatever you feel comfortable with) to carry along whenever taking Addie outside.  Do things that will put you back in control.

Prayers and good wishes to you and Addie.  Remember we are here to support you, so please keep us posted.  

 

 

[Bridget]

That scared me so much just reading it, I can only imagine what it must have been like for you (and little Addie)! Ditto what everyone has said.  Maybe hang around outside a bit without Addie and have a word with her if you see her. We carry a stick with us at night, like a big hard rubber nightstick, only longer, mostly because we live in Florida and I have an irrational fear of alligators, but it would work on collies too!

[Autumn & Lola]

Oh Whits, I am so sorry to hear about this! Thank goodness Addie seems okay (and you too!).  I am so glad you were able to yank her straight up by her lead. There are some excellent replies and advice in this thread. I can only suggest (if it is possible, as I don't know if he is retired or not) to get a bill from your dad after he examines Addie and present it to the woman.  That flippant 'sorry!' really ticked me off. I apologized more profusely when Lola just *barked* at another dog at the vet!  You and Addie certainly didn't need this after your horrible summer!  I hope you both can sleep peacefully tonight. *big hugs*

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

Hugs to you and Addie from me and Pepper!  Pepper says "let me at 'em"...  Those herding dogs are iffy alot of times and too bad the lady lost control of the leashes...time to have a talk with management and owner to try and remedy the situation.

[pkcrossley]

what a terrible story. it could have been much worse so I'm guessing these dogs are more poorly behaved than evil, but the owner (if she was an owner) is clearly at fault. if she can't control the dogs she needs better collars or needs to exercise them in a fenced area where they can't bother other people and dogs. you did just the right thing --I don't know if the Julius has a handle but my dogs' ruffwear vests had handles and they were a blessing in so many situations. addie's licking could be a nervous tick; she is probably not only very upset and wary herself but of course also picking up on your feelings. so very sorry the two of you had to go through this totally unnecessary trauma.

Edited December 13, 2016 by pkcrossley

[Hillscreek]

Poor Addie poor you. Agree with above. Report the incidents with photos if there's damage to see.

I had an incident early last spring. We walk on fields where I can let Angus run free. Very occasionally we meet another dog running free also. Usually the dogs run and circle and have sniffs- sometimes jump about each other a bit. Us owners wave and go a different way from each other - that's fine with me.

However one day as we walked a huge malamute leapt through the brush and ran up to Angus who was ready to meet and greet. Not the other dog though. He stopped on stiff legs with his tail in that certain way upright and trembling a  bit. Angus has learned some things over his life and one of them is not to mess with a dog who might be threatening him. He forgot the greeting idea and came running to me . We stood still - me very anxious. Angus's was wearing his Julius hunting vest which does have a handle on but I wasn't sure I could hold him and deal with the other dog. Eventually I called out. "Come and get your dog, come and get your dog"
and a woman came with a lab on a leash and called the malamute who waited a bit and then returned to her. She said "I'm sorry but he likes to go boss other dogs"? She had not seen us.

Think maybe walking him on  a long line might have been safer. It's what I did with Angus till he was at least three years old and got some dog sense. It is now winter and if we go that way he still stops where the dog jumped out and waits and looks and sniffs and checks with me. Doggies and their owners do not forget.

I'm sure Addie may be anxious for a while. Let us know how she is. Hope the other owner will get help. Hugs from Angus and me

[Malcolm's Dad]

Agree with the above too. Those dogs and owner need to be reported. Thanks to you yanking Addie up to your arms there was no great harm done. Grandpa will have to check her to make sure. I remember what happened to Buffy. I think the owners had to move after being taken to court. hheldorfer has a blog on this. Well worth reading.

You and Addie have been through so much. Hope things calm done and Addie can enjoy going out again.

I've had to yank Malcolm up to my arms sometimes. Not because dogs were attacking Malcolm. Malcolm wanted to attack other dogs. I know how vicious he is and don't want him to hurt another dog or get involved in a dog fight. I think I am being responsible. Too bad this lady doesn't think the same way.

[Sam I Am]

Oh Whitney I hope Addie and you are ok! I held my breath while reading your post. No doubt Addie is nervous, Lordy, who wouldn't be. I would definitely call all the authorities that I could, plus find out where this stupid woman lives, get a letter from your lawyer, with the bill from Grandpa vet, and send it registered  mails, putting her on notice, that any further attacks will be dealt through your lawyer. The law seems to be pretty pathetic when it comes to animals being injured(at least up here), however you could have been ripped to pieces yourself protecting Addie....next time it could happen. Now let that old biddy think that one through.  

Us owners with smaller dogs pretty much all experience  something like this at least once. I have and for the longest time  carried one or the other....a dressage whip, or what I felt safest with, a walking cane. That can deliver some major damage if need be. Please let us know what Grandpa vet thinks...plus take good care of yourself tonight.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Terrier lover

[_whits_]

An update before I go to bed:

I sent a detailed email to the apartment complex and they followed up requesting a meeting. I'm happy with their response and the proposed initial steps. Their first reaction at the in-person meeting was to apologize and to ask me if I wanted to bypass the apartment and go straight to the police. The apartment agent and manager focus wasn't on their procedures but asking me what I wanted them to do. I asked if there had been any reported problems with the dogs before, and they said there hadn't. I told them that what I wanted initially was for the apartment management to have a discussion with the owner, explain that the situation was unacceptable, and to tell them that I had chosen not to to go the police but I reserved the right to do so. What I said I expected: that the dogs would be walked in a way that maintained control over them; whether that meant walking them separately, getting new leashes/harnesses, or involving a professional trainer. I wanted an acknowledgement from the owner that she was not maintaining control over the dogs and an explanation of concrete steps she would take to ensure she did have control over the dogs in the future. The apartment management apologized again, said they would speak to the owner the next day (I stopped by in the evening), and that they would report back on the owner's response and plan. The apartment made it clear that they did not view the issue as settled, and saw the discussion with the owner as only the first step in a longer process to ensure this does not happen again.

I know a lot of you wanted me to call the police and animal control. I decided not to (yet, I reserve the right to in the future, about this incident, and I will immediately if it happens again). My decision was based on three main reasons:

1) Neither Addie nor I are physically injured. If there was an injury I would escalate things much more drastically. 

2) This is the first time these dogs have been reported to the apartment. If this was a pattern, I would escalate to police/animal control. But the apartment management (who I trust because they are rule sticklers about the lease and appropriate communal behavior) says this is the first time they've been mentioned, I have only seen the dogs once before, and Addie's group of dog friends (well the owners) said they had not seen the dogs before even though they've been on the property a while (according to management).  

3) Knowing animal control and police in our area, the dogs would be killed for this. And I don't think they deserve to die for what appears to be a first-time offense that did not cause an injury. I also think their owner deserves punishment more than the dogs, and police and animal control are likely to make the only punishment the dogs' death whereas going through the apartment makes the punishment fall first on the irresponsible owner. 

I'll update you all when I hear back from the apartment. 

More importantly, Addie saw Dr. Grandpa today. I went to his home this evening because his hospital was busy (and had a parvo puppy show up). Addie is a very good patient at the hospital and I found out a terrible patient at her grandparent's home. She was offended that Grandpa wanted to be Doctor during off-hours and made her displeasure clear with some choice kicks and and strong wiggles. But he thoroughly checked her, with a special focus on her mouth, gums, teeth, eyes, nose, and ears and reported that everything is 100% physically okay with no injuries. He thinks the jowl licking was a stress response, much like you said pk.

As the day progressed, Addie returned more and more back to normal. I'm keeping an eye out for any injuries that might take longer to show like muscle strains or sprains but as of now Addie is absolutely fine physically and returning to normal emotionally. She's skittish around dogs still and didn't want to walk where the incident happened, but it's barely been 24hrs and she's steadily improving. I'm not forcing her to do things she doesn't want to do  but I'm making sure I act confident and happy so she knows she's safe.

Addie's mood improved considerably when Grandma and Grandpa decided to give Addie nearly 1/2 of a hamburger patty (after both stared accusingly at her diet-sized dinner). It improved further still when Grandpa wanted to see her do her tricks and thought she deserved a treat for every one (including sit). So she might have gained all the weight back in a single night that Grandpa suggested she lose last month, but otherwise she's healthy and happy and returning to normal. 

I say it a lot but I can never say it enough: thank you to each of you for your support and advice. It is a relief to have such a lovely support system of protective bears for my little girl. 

[Tuesday]

Poor Addie, and poor you. Thank goodness she and you are not physically hurt.  I'm grateful that your apartment management is working with you, and I'm looking forward for the updates.  

Hugs to you and Addie.

[Sam I Am]

Your plan sounds like a good one, and I am glad you have a good property management that is pro active in keeping their clients safe.It could have been a very bad outcome, had the dogs gone after you Whitney while you were protecting Addie. Sorry if my previous post was rather strong worded ....but you are a part of my Cairn family.

I get Addie's change in behaviour when presented with a hamburger. ......I kind of get like that when someone gives me a pastry or....mmmmm Pecan tarts.

[_whits_]

17 minutes ago, Terrier lover said:

Sorry if my previous post was rather strong worded ....but you are a part of my Cairn family.

I love the protective Cairn Talk family!

[hheldorfer]

What a relief to hear that Addie is 100% OK!  I'm also delighted to hear that Addie seems to be improving already.  That's a good sign.  Buffy took a long, long time to get over her nervousness about walking through the neighborhood and, to this day, she gets extremely agitated and fearful if she sees a dog off-leash.  

It sounds like you have the situation well under control and the managers at the apartment complex are committed to solving the issue.  I completely understand your decision not to involve animal control or the police, particularly because there were no injuries.  Around here, there is no other option.    

After that hamburger patty I bet Addie won't mind if Grandpa wants to be Dr. Grandpa at  his house again.

[pkcrossley]

well handled, and I would bet (a smallish bet) that now that you feel better about the whole thing addie's anxiety will moderate a bit. it was a terrible experience and the apartment complex has to impress upon this lady that this is serious stuff. unfortunately many terriers (and I have no idea whether this includes addie) have a mysterious way of pushing the buttons of other dogs, even when they don't mean to. my dog redmon had no interest in mixing It up with other dogs but on sight dogs would challenge him from afar or run right up to him to have It out eye to eye. he was very vigilant and just the hint of a dog on the horizon when out for a walk would have him pulling me in a different direction. I think he was as puzzled as anybody else why other dogs took such offense at him, but you get a little sense of it from spending time with terriers. just something about their erect postures, confident little strut, casual assumption of territorial rights and the tendency of most of them to throw insolent looks at other dogs can just go down wrong. for cairns, this seems to be one of their many lovable awkward edges to their fit with modern life. but as redmon's experience suggested to me, even the peaceniks among cairns cannot completely avoid attracting the attention of rambunctious, hypersensitive, or just poorly socialized other dogs. of course, redmon's peaceableness was strictly principled; he had decided that he did not want to argue or fight with anybody. but if the doggie equivalent of push came to shove, the dreaded cairn frenzy was always loaded up and ready to go. as I said, the handles on his harness were invaluable, and being able to hoist him and walk away was essential. fortunately we never encountered big dogs determined to do harm, though we know they are out there. 

[sanford]

40 minutes ago, pkcrossley said:

...many terriers ... have a mysterious way of pushing the buttons of other dogs, even when they don't mean to...you get a little sense of it from spending time with terriers. just something about their erect postures, confident little strut, casual assumption of territorial rights and the tendency of most of them to throw insolent looks at other dogs can just go down wrong.

This has been my experience with Ruffy. I sensed that he instigated confrontations, but wasn't sure... until I read PK's comments!

P.S. Re TerrierLovers comment about carrying a dressage whip or cane: I don't disagree with this premise. We need to do what we feel is best to protect ourselves and our pets. To that end, I was told that it is best to strike the attacking dog on the nose, which is delicate and vulnerable to pain, instead of the head, (which is hard as a brick wall). That said, anyone whoever witnessed the frenzy of a dogfight knows that the moving targets become a blur of motion, making it difficult or impossible to land any blow at all. 

[Autumn & Lola]

I'm so glad that Addie is okay and you are both feeling better overall.   I am also very glad that you reported it to the complex and that they are taking the incident seriously.

[Hillscreek]

Whits -Very happy you went the route you did. Hard to condemn dogs on a one time meet (even though scary). Maybe owner rather than dog the needs a talk as you mentioned.

Re dog threat. I do always have a hiking staff with me when out walking but I would never have dared threaten that malamute. He was like most of them around 24inches high and I guessing about 80lbs with a thick thick coat on top of that. I probably wouldn't try to hit  any dog actually. Would not not want dog's wrath turned on me. As Sandford says very difficult to hit a quickly moving dog. Curiously it's the only time Angus has acted that way. He's met plenty of big dogs without acting scared. I do know that Malamutes have a strong prey drive so maybe Angus was to him like a vole is to Angus.

[lindasue]

Glad to hear everything is OK.  Pegi and I had an encounter with a mean shepard in our neighborhood when she was a pup.  First he broke loose from his stake in the ground and attacked her; I was able to pick her up and get away.  Then a few months later he broke away again.  The owner was yelling "pick up your dog" and the shepard then jumped on me.  That was it; I went to see the owner and he told me the dog "doesn't like small dogs".  Then I called the dog officer, no response.  Fortunately our city council rep is a family friend; he immediately got the dog officer over there.  They also asked if I wanted the police involved; didn't want the dog put down just wanted it controlled.  They ended up having to put a huge pen in the back yard where the dog was confined.  Pegi would NEVER walk down that street, and if the dog was out we had to turn back and walk around.  This lasted about 3 years; then the dog got old and Pegi got braver.  That dog is gone now and thank goodness they have a golden lab named Cinderella who is as gentle as can be.

the

Bottom line; stand up for your dog and yourself.  We should never be afraid to take our dogs outside.  They are brave little dogs, but no match for 100 lb. bullies!

[pkcrossley]

having seen ruffy's pictures I'm sure that if he gets rough treatment from other guys it is entirely due to jealousy.

[_whits_]

On our walk yesterday, Addie trotted up to where the incident happened and left a big poop pretty much exactly where it happened (which I of course picked up). I think she wanted to make a statement. 

She's now walking past the spot without changing her behavior at all. She was skittish the past two days when she saw other dogs (both unknown and friends). Just now, however, she got back from her night walk and bumped into her Frenchie neighbor Lola on the way in and the two trotted happily side-by-side down the halls, chased each other in the elevator, and Addie tried to sneak in Lola's apartment with her. Addie appears to be her normal self again, thank goodness. I know how terrible this all could have been, so I'm very grateful.

Pk, Addie doesn't appear to be the type of Cairn who somehow invites altercations. Indeed, almost every dog approaches her eagerly and likewise. She seems to invite friends with her body language. She doesn't seem to knowingly or unknowingly irritate dogs from a distance.

She does, however, have some limitations in initial face-to-face social skills. I tell people that she did not appear to get many "how to be a dog" lessons when she was birth-3 months. She was taken from her mom immediately at birth due to her mom's poor health from the puppy mill environment. Addie was then placed in a foster home  with 10 similarly-aged puppies and no dog mom. I get the impression she ruled over the other 9 puppies and no dog ever set limits or taught her standard dog greetings. Getting her to greet other dogs appropriately has always been a challenge so I limit close greetings to responsible owners and dogs.

Addie has always thought the proper friendly dog to dog greeting was lunging at their neck in excitement and would rather die than sniff butts; she also is very very vocal and loves to make all sorts of weird noises and growls during play. So we keep a wide berth on walks unless we have a chance to explain the social skill situation and I can closely control the greeting. 

Once the first greeting is over and successful, subsequent greetings with the same dog are easy. 

But I will say I notice that she can intimidate just about any dog, friend or foe. Addie prefers befriending larger dogs and she definitely rules the pack no matter how many or how big they are. She'll try to put any dog in their place and rarely encounters one who resists. 

There are dogs she avoids based on their body language and sometimes she'll dislike a dog for unknown reasons (she either hates or wants to eat all Yorkies). But having dogs she'd only seen (and not met) once before go after her with clear aggression from such a distance was an entirely new and unexpected experience. Especially with them breaking free of their leashes. 

[hheldorfer]

10 hours ago, _whits_ said:

. . . sometimes she'll dislike a dog for unknown reasons (she either hates or wants to eat all Yorkies). 

Buffy feels the exact same way about Yorkies.  There's nothing she'd like more than to show the neighborhood Yorkinator who's boss!

I'm delighted to hear Addie doesn't seem to have doggie PTSD from the encounter.  And every Cairn would like to high-five her for pooping at the location of the incident.

 

[Malcolm's Dad]

So glad Addie is getting back to normal. This must be a relief for you too. Malcolm high fives her for leaving her opinion at the incident location.

Addie's Grandpa and Grandma are the typical grandparents. They love to spoil the kids.