Concerns about our Cairn family

[hheldorfer]

I am addressing this to all of our Cairn Talk members, in addition to Brad, our leader and moderator.  

This weeks events have been upsetting to many of us and Brad's comment about "giving up on the whole enterprise" has disturbed me greatly.  We have a tightly-knit family here but it is a family that has always enthusiastically welcomed new members and their Cairns.  We laugh together, cry together, and work through problems together.  We sometimes disagree but generally do so in a respectful and thoughtful manner.

One member - a member who previously had left in a huff and insisted on cancelling his/her account due to differences with a number of other members - reappeared this week and began posting argumentative and often ill-worded comments on various posts.  I personally reported one of these posts, which was then deleted by Brad.  None of the posts were supportive or encouraging.  They were "my way or the highway" posts and left little room for the possibility that the opinions/knowledge of others could possibly be more correct than those of the poster.  

It is human nature to react negatively to comments that totally disregard the feelings and opinions of others.  Those who reacted in this way were, in my opinion, simply defending our Cairn family.  I feel that it was the one member only who is responsible for this week's troubles and not the fault of those who stepped forward in our defense.

My understanding is that the offending member's account has now been deactivated and that should be the end of it.  I hope that we can return to being the supportive Cairn family that I joined years ago and has enriched my life beyond measure.  

 

[Hillscreek]

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and their own interpretation of other opinions expressed in the forum. We are diverse. We live all over the country.

Sometimes we receive posts differently from the way we are used to or may prefer. As long as posts are within the guidelines Brad talked about then people are free to say what they want, however they want. No need to respond.

Want to add why not talk to a person rather than about them? Isn't that something you can use a PM for?

I stand by what I wrote in this post elsewhere. This cairn forum has a few people who post often and a few more who read and post sometimes. Those people feel they get to know one another and are "family" who get upset when their harmony is jangled.

The current cry for "safe " space is spreading everywhere - even here. Think First Amendment, think caring for others different from oneself, think replying in a civilized manner to posts that rile you or are perhaps mistaken or incorrect. Think avoid casting out the ones not like you.

Pming each other and running to Bradl is not the solution in my mind. Squabbling with other members isn't either. If I got mad at everyone who opposed my views politically, socially or otherwise I'd be in a bad way as I am far out of the mainstream in many ways. Owning a cairn is the least of them

Suggest things you can do

1  correct errors with facts.

2  reply politely an in civilized manner to posts expressed differently from what you might wish.

3  ignore a post

4  leave the forum

This is a fun forum  and most of the time enjoyable but I can manage without it. I would not blame Bradl one bit if he closed it down. It's a huge amount of work when running smoothly. Hardly worth it when full of complaints. Surely we are not a fortress that has to bedefended?

I'm very sorry the member's account has been has been deactivated. Someone who might have benefited from a caring, understanding group of people showing how to communicate thoughtfully. Instead someone who has been tossed out because they hurt our feelings by speaking bluntly and aggressively.

 

[hheldorfer]

I respectfully disagree with some of your comments, Hillscreek.  I don't believe I or anyone else is crying for this to be a "safe space", I believe in the First Amendment, and I don't think everyone should agree with me.  I am completely open to the suggestions and opinions of others, I just don't think they should be prefaced by comments such as "What are you people talking about?" and "blah, blah, blah" (which was the beginning of the post that I reported and was deleted).  These are incendiary phrases that have the effect of taunting and insulting the intelligence of others.  

To me, it comes down to having some manners when talking to others, on a forum or in person.  I try to never post anything on the forum that I wouldn't say to a person's face.   

I have no problem with someone being "blunt".  I don't expect others to agree with everything I say and I expect to be treated accordingly by those with whom I communicate.

 

[Idaho Cairns]

Now I'm nosy!  What have I missed this week?  Now you're going to get me going back over every topic big time!
OK, I'm all caught up and in on the reasons for the concern.  Looks like the matter has been handled well with the problem(s) solved.  Thanks for clearing the fog for me.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Idaho Cairns

[Autumn & Lola]

I agree 100%, Helene.  I also reported the 'blah, blah, blah' post.  This woman is a classic troll. When she was on before as Gonetothedogs, she immediately started posting baiting, highly aggressive, mocking and patronizing posts.  She was no different this time. Within two posts I knew it was her (as did several others), back with a different screen name. Her obnoxious, arrogant manner is very transparent. She was never here to become part of the Cairn family - she wanted to stir things up, anger people and cause discord, and she succeeded. I'm sure she is laughing herself silly now, or causing trouble on another forum. I've seen her type several times in 25 years online, both as a participant and as a moderator of forums.

For long-time, highly active and supportive members of this forum to want to preserve our close-knit, happy, supportive community and are reprimanded for it boggles my mind. I also don't think an adult should have to be taught manners, and how to communicate on a public form. She knew exactly what she was doing.

[utgaard]

There is the option to ignore another user.  Brad posted the instructions here.  We are human and it is easy to offend or be offended when reacting on an emotional level.  Trolls want to trigger an emotional response.  Please use the ignore feature if you feel you are being trolled and report the trolling member to the Admins.

It is fairy easy to forgive someone you think of as family.  Our family is growing and it takes some of us a little longer to figure out where and how we fit in this family.  There is a difference between a troll and someone with strong contrary opinions.  In either case, whenever a post violates the forum rules the Admins need to be notified - someone with contrary opinions will learn the rules, while a troll will be banned.

I value your posts even when they irritate me and I would hate to lose any of you from this forum.  Go for a walk, I'm sure your Cairn or honorary Cairn would be happy to go with you.  We'll get through this somehow.

[Malcolm's Dad]

I too was shocked at Brad's comment to give up the enterprise. There are no other sites on the internet that offer the sage advice about Cairns. If not for this forum I don't know where I would be with Malcolm. Many times people have come here looking for advice about their dog and have received valuable advice that help them greatly with whatever problem they have. No other site does this.

Hope things continue and our family remains intact.

[_whits_]

Just peeping in here to note that I don't believe this person's account was deactivated by an Admin, it appears they deactivated their own account (something they had previously done in December and two days ago). They weren't tossed out, they made their own choice to leave, repeatedly.

Terrier Lover, however, has been temporarily suspended. For reasons I don't entirely understand as the two posts that appear to have resulted in her suspension were respectful expressions of support for Addie, from what I can see.

I haven't read all the posts on all the threads, but in my experience the only person not replying in a civilized manner was the person who chose to leave the forum. 

Update: And that person has chosen to return, as of a few minutes ago they reactivated their account.

Update 2: They appear to have deactivated their own account, again.

Update 3: account has been reactivated. This person has been activating and reactivating their own account repeatedly for at least 48 hours now. I won't update again as I assume the process will continue. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by _whits_

[Islander]

I agree with those who want to balance "safety" with acceptance of diverse opinions. I also agree that repeated offensive behaviour should not be tolerated. Before my retirement I taught social work courses, both online and on campus - so I know a thing or too about political correctness! I used to tell my students that in a perfectly safe environment we are not likely to learn much. Also, that naming offensive language or behaviour needs to be the responsibility of all, not just the instructor - or moderator. 

I know that Nononsense/Gonetothedogs was confronted on his/her tone and manner by more than one member. This person did not seem interested in changing behaviour. The comments about cancer, in a thread that is one among others fraught with anxiety and in some cases despair, were particularly insensitive and even cruel.

We can ignore content that is offensive, but I personally felt inhibited in my posting about certain issues while the person in question was active, not wanting to generate a harsh reaction or start a "sided" discussion. 

Thinking about my experience with online forums, I find it remarkable that in the years I have been a member of Cairntalk, this is the first stumbling block of its kind I have encountered. And a valuable one in that through this discussion we are all encouraged to reflect on our own responses and behaviour as well as what we all value in the forum.

i would miss it terribly, and I hope to see Terrier Lover online soon.

[bradl]

• Per the members request, and over my objection, member content for gone to the dogs and NoNonense is being scrubbed. This is an automated process that takes place in the background and can take a while to complete.

I cannot express how angry doing this make me. However this is not the forum to discuss the finer points of nonexclusive rights to publish, the currently nonapplicable EU right to be forgotten, etc. Bottom line is we are posting in a public forum and once posted I am under no obligation to remove posts*.  I reserve the right to do so, and have done so.

Additionally

• The account deactivation/reactivation grace period has been turned off.
• The ability to self-initiate a reactivation has been turned off. 
• The one-day post restriction expired. No one had been banned.  The account was apparently self-deactivated.

* Certain exceptions exist. I'm not that dense.

[bradl]

If/when you leave and if/when you decide to come back, please use the contact form to ask for your old account to be reactivated. 

Or, if you create a new account, let me know your old account name and I can merge the new into the old or the old into the new, your choice. 

If you trying to come back for a do-over, un-merged "Brand New Day" accounts will be tolerated on a pre-arranged basis if your goal is to start over, you are willing to be 100% moderated for an unspecified period of time, and you are open to making adjustments.

[pkcrossley]

very generous, brad, we are all sorry you've been bothered by this. you are very definitely under no obligation legal or ethical to do it. if people want to self-erase, literally or figuratively, there is nothing much any of us can do about it except minimize the damage to others. well done. 

[Dempsy's Mom]

I missed the whole thing, but that's ok I am in the dark most of the time anyway.   Feel bad for everybody.  Life's to short.  Hope everybody gets back on track and can post and enjoy.

[Kathryn]

In Ireland and dependent on WiFi in a very remote place - so have missed most of the brouhaha (without regret). But Brad - I value your leadership, your humor and your common sense about our cairns - and I appreciate beyond belief the efforts you make to keep this forum and our connections to each other working. 

I will miss Autumn and Lynn (and Lola and Rosie) if they choose to stay away - and hope they choose to join us again.

And, like Lori, who posted recently in the original thread, I hope the best for Addie, who became the unfortunate center of much of this fuss. Hang in there, Addie - we do care about you.

[Hillscreek]

Brad you do great work and you do it in such a kindly and helpful way. Thanks. Apologies to all for any misunderstandings re 'tossed out' 'time out' 'self de-activated'. Sorry this brou-ha-ha is cause for people to leave.

It's Independence Day tomorrow folks. Let's go out out and fire up the barbeque. Let's go watch the fireworks. Let's blow up anger and irritation and any other bad feelings. Come back able to post and enjoy and support one another and our beloved cairns.

[Malcolm's Dad]

I too am sorry to see what happened on the forum. This has put a stress on Brad.  CairnTalk is a most valuable resource for me. It has helped me to understand Malcolm in many ways. We have never met in person but the people on the forum have become close friends and family.  Ever since I've been on the forum it has been a decent place and I hope it will continue to be so. I was a host in a Senior Citizens chat room. The room allowed any age to join in we enjoyed talking to the kids. Only once did we have to ban a man from Australia who was sexually harassing a woman from Mexico.

Well Brad hope things calm down and you can relax. Take care everyone.

[Lynn in TN]

First I would like to say Brad Please don't give up the forum! You do a great job.

I never new I could care so much about people I have never met in person or even talked to in person. You ALL will never know how much you mean to me.

I am a Christian and I try to be as Christ like as I can, I fail miserably most of the time, so please forgive me if I have ever done or said anything that hurt any of you all, I truly didn't mean to.  I really failed miserably when I read that post before the editing happened. I was so completely furious, because I knew that post, was going to hurt people I love. I wanted to hunt her down and ring her neck. As my Papaw use to say I wanted to tear her butt up like new ground. I slammed my laptop shut. With the intention of not coming back on the forum for a while.

As a Christian I am called to love everyone, it doesn't matter what they do. Evil people love those that love them. I am called to be above that, and to set an example for others. I am sorry that I failed to do that. I should be loving to all people, and hope to reach people that are so miserable with themselves, they do their best to make others feel the same.

I also love the Bill of Rights, and try to respect everyones opinion, even when I disagree. Freedom of Speech, is a very powerful freedom that no one should lose. Do I agree with people that are inconsiderate jerks? NO!  

This forum is special and is the most peaceful forum I have ever been on. We can keep it that way by not responding to people that feed on negativity. I work a lot in my Church and have found that if you feed negativity with Love then the negative either changes or leaves. I personally need to learn to do this sooner and not let the negative get to me at all.

Lynn and Autumn should return and not let evil win, they did exactly what that person wanted. To ruin peoples day, to wreck havoc, and to cause discord in this group.

I love you all. May God bless you all, and this forum.

 

[Account Deleted]

Brad, I too must ask you do not give up on us or the forum.  I totally understand your frustration, but please know your work, humor and wonderful advice is essential and greatly appreciated.  When our little Moggie was going through her surgery for the lipoma, I was astounded by the love, support this group of people showed to me and my husband. 

I grieve that one person could be so malicious and destructive to the group.  Bitterness is truly a poison that turns some of our hearts hard...I don't really know the person with the handle "nononsense", but I do feel sorry for them as they feel the need to lash out and be so negative.  That must be an awful way to go through life, she has my prayers that someday she will have a change of heart. 

I believe we have a right to free speech, but agreeing to the rules of the forum we said we would uphold when we became members, I understand that my free speech needs to conform to this agreement.  Also, I do not believe our men and women of our armed services fought for the right for someone to belittle another.  Hate speech is not free speech, just hate.

I ask now for a time of healing, using those wonderful skill we show to each other everyday... Terrier Lover and Autumn I hope in time you heal, and remember how loved you are and how coveted your advice is for us novices.

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by moggie

[beccadiane374]

I, as a few others, have been a bit blissfully (and thankfully) unaware of the drama - or it could be that I've quite perfected ignoring offensive things due to extensive practice on Facebook and other social media sites.

But this forum has been a gift & a blessing to me, most especially when Tanner was a puppy and everything was new.  While I'm certainly not the most verbal member, we have been a part for quite some time and I treasure knowing I have a place of people who "get" my relationship with my cairn.

[Tuesday]

I'm one of the members that check in every now and then, post very little, but care very deeply for this forum and the Cairns and their humans.  I belong to a few groups here and there, and this one over 8 years that I've been a member, has been the kindest and most respectful.

Trying to read between the lines and figure out what happened has made me very sad.  

I hope we will recover and get back to normal.  

 

Y'all really are the best.  

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

I missed the whole thing too!  Goodness!  I love this forum and laugh at the videos in particular!!!

[tlwtheq]

Gosh, I missed all of this, too.  I'm so sorry this has occurred in what is usually a safe and happy place, and that we apparently lost two dear members.  I'm fine with banning mean people who don't give a rap for other people's feelings.  I guess it's not very high minded or anything to say that, but this is not a place for being purposely and negatively argumentative.  I'm sure glad I missed the posts from Gone to the Dogs/No Nonsense.  Sounds like she has her own demons to face...let her face them elsewhere.

I hope all of we friends/family can continue here on the Cairn Talk forum.  If you need an "East Coast office" Brad, I'll gladly volunteer.  That is, as long as you know you kick my pattutti with regard with regard to managing web forums and I would need to ramp up.    (My life is all about Big Data right this minute, down on the farm at Census Bureau.)

Love to everyone here.  Hope we get through this.

Tara

[bradl]

While I was running around having the crappiest vacation in recent memory I promised to share some thoughts when I got back. I feel like I've waited too long as it is but dang this is a wall of text. I don't even want to read it myself at this point!

I have struggled and failed to find a sensible, understandable or concise way to communicate my sadness and frustration about the recent unpleasantness. I've always wished my life could have the benefit of an editor to strike out the mistakes and clarify and tighten the focus of my existence. Sadly the job has been left to a hack. Apologies in advance for the fact that I'm about to dump a wall of text on you and STILL not get to a satisfying bottom line. As the saying goes, I'd have written less but I ran out of time. 

TLDR (Too Long; Didn't Read) Summary:  I prefer Cairn Talk calm and gentle too, but the bar for taking offense at interpersonal transgressions has got to be raised significantly. If the cost turns out to be membership or the forum's existence, so be it. My sorrow will be immense, but life marches on. But I can't give up yet. I'd really rather keep moving on with positive intent. I know and feel that everyone has only the best intentions and I appreciate you for it.

For myself,  I'd like to be a terrier, take my lumps, and get back to wagging my tail, barking at varmints and UPS truck, and stalking anything that moves. And taking naps. And angling for food. 

Anyway, wall of text. At least three angles of perspective shape where I'm coming from... 

Spoiler

 

One is that I grew up in a raucous and verbal family. We argued and squabbled energetically. I could and would argue anything, sometimes just to be on the opposite side of a debate. I made (name redacted) cry in civics class in high school because I took the devil's advocate side in some slavery-related class exercise too energetically. If you think that articulating the historical case for slavery has anything to do with my personal beliefs there is just no hope for you. Bottom line is many times I read arguments as just a sort of noise. Not to be taken personally. I can see how that could be viewed as uncaring.

Two is that as a middle child I *hate* conflict and found myself constantly mediating emotional disputes. I hated it then and hate it now but but couldn't stop being dragged in. On the plus side I became a technical writer in part because I found the profession a satisfyingly dispassionate way to mediate between multiple audiences: marketeers, engineers, repair people, manufacturing people, and customers who just want to get something done or enjoy a product or device of some kind. But my unfortunate staff came to know that when they complained to me about the transgressions of another department I would spend at least as much time trying to understand why the offending department did or felt what they did. Only then could we figure out how to make things better for our department without denying the truth of a different department that had their own worries, goals, obstacles, concerns.

Three is that thanks to an old-school class I took to overcome reluctance to speak in public (Dale Carnegie if you know it) I learned a surprising thing that has been of immeasurable value to me. I learned how to find and treasure value in people I might loathe in every other respect.  Whether I liked the person or not had no bearing on their intrinsic worth. I was missing or willfully rejecting potentially interesting and useful information by filing people away as annoyances in my mind. This befouled bathwater … turned out it had an otherwise innocent baby in it. Realizing I did not actually have to like everyone was liberating. It certainly helped me get along more happily in the business world.

OK, that's way more personal than I'm comfortable with. Moving on.

I wonder if there might be a disconnect in our expectations vs reality in what the forum is or can or should be.

The fact that the forum has developed a very close, personal family feel is a pleasant, generally positive, desirable side effect, but to be brutally honest that is not the primary intent. Or at least, it's not the only purpose of a forum. While that family feel is lovely for the people in it, when it turns to a circle-the-wagons defense to exclude and drive out uncomfortable outsiders  I don't read it as a positive.  It leads to increasingly narrow tolerance for ideas — and yes behavior — that fall outside a small group norm at a particular point in time .

Over the past twelve years there has always been a (typically small) core of active users that slowly morphs as people come and go for myriad reasons. I still perk up with every new registration in the hope that a new voice will join the party and become a regular for a little while or a long while. But as someone who has been active in hundreds of online communities in dozens of disciplines over the years I know that people join forums for an equally diverse array of needs. Some register to get temporary access to the privileged content, others engage with a community actively to question and learn, some join a community find friends and activities with like-minded folks, others engage to BS and goof off, and so on.

Some people are looking for a safe harbor, but others are not. Some are looking for new friends, but others are not. Some are looking to provide information; others are looking to consume it. Some are skilled writers some are barely literate. Some are gentle souls and others are bulls in a china shop. There should be room for everyone. Except Hitler, OK you got me there.

Cairn Talk is different things to different people, but some things it is not.

Cairn Talk is not Cairn Cult. There is no dogma and you are free to have your own personal ideas about the breed and your relationship to it.  You probably will find members who's truths are closely aligned with yours. You may not. But it is absolutely deadly to assume that everyone believes as we do, or behaves as we would. That way lies groupthink. 

Every time I see "We all would do whatever it takes to save/fix/rescue our dog" I cringe. That is most certainly not true, unless your definition of "whatever it takes" is very lax. If an old school crofter type says "Eh, 13 and sick? I shoot 'em" that is  not my world view but I'm not going to judge or moderate that person because some other member's 13 year old dog is sick and they are eating dirt to afford care the crofter thinks is ridiculous. I'll have opinions about nearly everything, but judgement is not part of that. It's not Cairn Talk's place to judge what is right. I'll say what I would do in a similar situation, but that's very different from saying what you or someone else should do.  

To suggest that I somehow approve or endorse or enjoy an unpleasant or appalling view expressed by someone else because I fail to expunge feels hurtful and somewhat insulting to me. To suggest that others can't see and form their own opinion seems insulting about them. 

It's fine for us to say we think a particular dog deserves something more or different. Saying it once and representing our alternative perspective is fine. Focusing on the moral or mental defectiveness of the person with the contrary opinion is not helpful and actively damaging to the forum. More damaging usually than the stark expression of an uncomfortable, rude or arrogantly expressed opinion, or factual error, followed by the sound of crickets.

Even if I harbor some faint hope of actually changing someone's mind I find people more likely to change their opinion or behavior when given a face-saving way to do so. That usually means allowing them enough room to find a path to make it plausibly their own idea. Browbeating someone into agreement feels like a hollow victory.

Cairn Talk is not Cairn Truth Squad. Cairn Talk  has no opinion and no responsibility to "correct the record" on mis-statements or outright falsehoods. The words belong to the person who spoke or typed them.

You can also speak your truth, but for yourself. It is not our job to force a person holding a wrong-headed idea to see our light. Some members may choose to offer citations to better sources, or appeals to authority with contrary opinions, and so on. Readers now and in the future will see all the offerings and come to their own conclusions. Good contributions stand out; crappy contributions are usually plain to see.

Cairn Talk is not Cairn Inquisition. "She's a witch" makes for a great Monty Python sketch but a terrible forum. 

Cairn Talk is not Camp Cairn - there is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying and fostering the warm personal relationships that develop. I enjoy the feeling of a virtual family as do many of us. But coming to Cairn Talk with emotional detachment is also perfectly OK. Not everyone wants their online participation to be up-close and personal. Some have a purely practical bent; some a clinical bent; some want serious advice and others just want to see pictures of Cairns being Cairns. Some people are by nature kind of prickly. Let them be. It's all good. 

Cairn Talk is not Miss Manners. Civility is indeed the goal but given the full spectrum of human behavior it is GUARANTEED that your personal threshold of what constitutes civility will be violated at some point, and possibly often. I appreciate the relative calmness of the forum over an extended period, but throwing gasoline on the occasional flare up turns what should be a fart in the wind into a conflagration. Help me doctor my metaphors are all mixed up!

In no way is attempting to deescalate, minimize, circumvent or ignore something unpleasant an endorsement of that thing. We're not talking about aiding the rise to power of a dictator or the march of an authoritarian regime unstopped by a mute populace. Of course we can say something if someone has stepped into "see something say something" territory. "Sorry, but I completely disagree with your view on this" or even  "I hope our member dealing with this issue understands that not everyone sees it the way you apparently do." But the goal is to put an alternative truth on display for people to see and recognize as the superior alternative, not put the wrong-headed in their place or keep them from speaking their (potentially harsh) mind. In other words, state your piece, leave personalities out of it, and then let it drop. Let the evidence speak for itself. Your clarity and charity will shine through and your evident restraint lends weight to the authority of your words.

Related is calibration of the rudeness curve. This may be the core issue. Yes, some folks are definitely rude, dismissive, tone-deaf or unable to read a room. Agreed!

I was once was offended by irregular punctuation. I got over that real fast when I came to realize I hoped someday to be adopted by a person with irregular punctuation. Suddenly I felt  that was a perfectly valid style decision

I've put people on my unofficial watchlist only to learn as time went on that English was not their native language; that a poster's social-cultural background was simply different than mine and that my prejudices were more indicative of my privilege than any deficiency of their intent; other posters may have unacknowledged disabilities they are working around rather successfully except in some area that sparks negative attention, and so on.  We don't always know what what we think we know. 

Some people are not rude intentionally, but when called out on it become defensive and lash out. Congratulations, we've escalated the situation and created an actively aggressive person. 

Unfortunately my threshold for what constitutes verbal abuse is clearly set rather higher than what you may hope for. Perhaps tainted by participation in online communities since the time of the Great Renaming I tend to feel that if I'm not bleeding from the eyes and ears I haven't really been insulted with intent. I'm not prepared to tolerate quite that level of invective in Cairn Talk, but the threshold is definitely higher than some feel it should be. 

That said, I don't mind (and even appreciate) questionable posts being flagged for review, but there should be NO expectation that the outcome will be editing or deletion. I see the report, I read the post. Usually I agonize for days (and nights) over what to do. In the end I'll decide what to do and it may be nothing. If that is unacceptable then we've reached the technical and social limits of a forum.

Cairn Talk is not Cairn Club. Oops, my mistake. If you type cairn.club into your browser you do indeed end up right back here.

Cairn Talk IS a Cairn community. Not only will typing that into your browser bring you right back, it also a community in which we share a common interest in the Cairn.  I think the Cairn is worthy of expending my effort to share the love and enjoyment of the breed. I delight when others do the same. But just as every Cairn I meet on the street goes home to a different family than mine, I know that we do too.

For many in the community at large, that interest in the Cairn may be the ONLY thing we hold in common. Had I more time I would have created two Venn diagrams. One where we imagine the biggest overlap is the Cairn part, with a few varied interests poking out at the edges,  and the other which I suspect it truer to life where the varied interests are mostly outside and the  shared Cairn portion is somewhat smaller. We imagine we're all on the same page because we're in the same place right now, but the world is big and people are diverse. 

Everything from upbringing, to religious or political beliefs, to personal ideas of truth or morality, to our values and principles and cultural norms, our first language, second language, third language, literacy in any language, and every other human aspect or trait that can be brought to the table will vary, and sometimes wildly. Some of these aspects will be in conflict to our expectations and desires.  As a result ...

Cairn Talk IS arbitrary and capricious.  No way around it. There is no filter to put posts in one end and moderated perfection comes out the other. In the end I can only do my best. I try to keep Cairn Talk a place I want to visit myself. That's about the extent of it. I experiment with features and add-ons I hope people will enjoy or do fun things with. I cheer the victories large and small and worry over the hurt and ailing, and mourn the losses.  

In the end, if Cairn Talk is not meeting your needs it may be that it can't or I can't. There is no harm and no foul in focusing your time and attention where it best serves your own needs and interest.  If you are a friend of the Cairn, you are friend of mine (like it or not  )

 

Again, sorry for the length. I know it won't satisfy some or possibly anyone, but I hope you can see that I do struggle with what to do and want to do the best I can for the site overall. It may not be enough or the right thing so at the end of the day it's a risk I have accepted.

[kjwarnold]

I'm not going to comment on this whole thing because I missed most of it.  I just want to commiserate with you, Brad, about having the crappiest vacation in recent memory.  Same here, glad it's over...  The dogs are even glad it's over!

[pkcrossley]

brilliantly formulated, brad, and very persuasive. i think you might also add that cairn talk is not trivial. i have no doubt that lives have been saved by the fact that this forum exists, and many, many lives improved. i was personally educated on vigorous give and take, and given the scope of abuse and invective on the internet generally i have always found cairn talk safe and mild, and that applies to all that has recently occurred. i can nevertheless understand that some members may feel that cairn talk's mission can be threatened by a break-down of communication or solidarity among members. there are some issues that might be discussed frankly (and possibly without the most desirable cushioning) and strike some members as threatening or brutal, but some serious issues come up here that will draw direct and economical content. i think your point that this can and should be written and read without judgment is profound: there are few things more subjective and more personal than a relationship with a pet. we all have to make up our own minds about very complex issues, and the trick is to offer support --and guidance if it is specifically requested-- without slipping in judgment and harshness. it is a very tough job, and ultimately all of us will fail at it at one time or another. we have to be understanding of that, too. i like to think of cairns reading cairn talk --they have no idea what judgment or grievance is, they just pick themselves up, wag their tails, apply themselves to the job and happily carry on.