Need advice

[sanford]

I've had Ruffy for 3 months now and I'm at a loss trying to come to terms with some of his behavior issues. We've worked with a trainer for several weeks and also completed basic obedience class. He's made some (small) strides and obedience will continue to be a work in progress before I feel he can be ready to move on to an advanced class. Even though Ruffy is not a star pupil, I'm encouraged that he's made some strides and I'm committed to continue working with him.

Our most serious problem is Ruffy's aggression toward large dogs. (He's OK with dogs his size & smaller). The trainer I hired has pretty much given up on him. The aggression I'm referring to is quite impressive & intimidating to witness. Whenever we encounter large dogs, they return Ruffy's hostile challenges, catching some of their owners off guard, so that they have trouble pulling their dogs back from attacking. The scenes can be loud and disturbing to passers by. Each day I am in fear for Ruffy's safety. The area of the city I live in is particularly dog-friendly, so one can almost never walk a even a short distance without encountering one, two or more dogs being walked. I keep Ruffy on a short leash and use a prong collar and try to be constantly vigilant when we walk. If I spot a large dog being walked towards us I try to cross the street or block Ruffy with my body, telling him "No!" and "Leave It!" as the other dog passes us by. (After several months of this, he has actually begun to respond to the commands and lets the others dogs pass by in peace...so maybe there's hope???). But my fear is that one day I might be distracted and let my guard down. If I should fail to give the command and/or his leash is the least bit slack, he goes into an enraged attack and a dog could end up badly hurt.

It's hard for me to reconcile the above with the fact that Ruffy doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body when it comes to people, and he particularly loves children. He's playful and easy-going in the apartment, never does mischief and is a complete pleasure to be with.

I am hoping that someone who is cairn-experienced might read this and let me know what the odds might be of changing such behavior in a 3 year old. Might it ever be changed at all, or just moderated? Is the behavior too imprinted to expect results? I'm feeling somewhat daunted that this may continue to be a life-long problem, but Ruffy is my dog and we are in this together. I just feel bad that others might never see him for the wonderful, good dog that I know him to be.

[Newman]

Wow my fonzy cairn does the same thing! Except we have not been to a trainer yet, I Hope that if we go to a trainer or get him trained properly it would stop it but I guess not since im reading your topic

I just pray that your dog get's along with u and others, just keep bearing with it, i pray to god to keep my fonzy safe from prey or maybe he will become pray if he bounces on other big dogs... so yeah if we can't do anything to help ur cairn just ask god, (dunt know if ur religious or not)

just my 2cents, sorry for a little bit of rambling, i just have the same type of dog kinda so i figured i'd post

[hheldorfer]

Buffy was like Ruffy (and still is, sometimes). We don't live in a large city where there are constant dog encounters during our walks but, when she sees a dog or dogs that she hasn't previously encountered she lunges, barks and generally makes a fuss. She has gotten much better over the past 2 years (she was 1 year old when we adopted her and is now almost 3) but she still has lapses. We've tried several methods: turning and walking in the opposite direction, squatting down and holding her leash tightly while blocking her view of the other dog, distracting her with treats. She's fine at the dog park (off-leash) so I've diagnosed it as a case of leash aggression. Obviously I haven't found a solution but I can tell you that, with patience, it will improve over time. We just try to remain consistent in correcting her.

Hang in there and remain vigilant. I'm cheering for you!

[Idaho Cairns]

I know what I would do Sanford and you have heard my suggesting here before--putting the dog down on its side immediately, making it submit to you and the larger dog (requires the cooperation of the other dog's owner) by "relaxing" has worked for me, but I realize that you may be uncomfortable with doing that so there are alternatives.

How about an off leash dog park? That would be my first "training" arena. Cairns do act differently when they are restrained. Perhaps there is a dog day care facility where he can mix with other dogs, even large ones. Letting Ruffy socialize without having to protect you or himself while you two are tied together might be the ticket.

[pkcrossley]

agree with idaho regarding you as a factor --you might find out something about this case by learning how ruffy acts when you are not in the picture. it is possible that he feels protective (or possessive) of you, but also possible that he is picking up on your anxiety and thinks you are afraid of these other dogs (when you are actually afraid of how he is going to act around them). once you start the mental cycle of anxious anticipation, ruffy is going to cue into it and start cranking himself up too. if you could get somebody to take your place, it could give you some information. of course if i were you i would not trust anybody else to take my place in these situations, except a trainer. what is with the trainer "giving up"? trainers are called in in difficult situations, they aren't supposed to just give up. if you could get a trainer to at least tell you what goes on with ruffy in these situations when you are not around, it might help you. doesn't seem like a lot of ask of a trainer. if the former one won't do it, see if you can get another one to at least do one such session.

i expect that ruffy is already solid with sit and stay, if not it is something to keep working on. when my dog was about ruffy's age and had a lot of these same behaviors (or at least impulses) i made him sit down when we saw another dog, and stay until the other dog was past. you have to explain to other people that your dog has a problem, and get them to just pass on by without taking offense. i'm not sure that making a point of exposing ruffy to provocations is the right course just now. seems like you want to lower the pressure and the stress (on him and you) by getting him to deal nicely with minimal contact with other dogs. you can extend the contact as he changes his behavior. keeping his contact to a minimum will also lessen the anxiety for you and allow you to reset the thermometer, which might reset ruffy's too. my instinct is to see this as something to do before using idaho's technique. if ruffy is unsure whether he has to protect you or not, it will only raise his anxiety and anger if he is forced to be submissive before another dog (a bigger dog, no less). perhaps you can get into such things after you are sure that you yourself are not a factor in ruffling ruffy in these situations.

it seems your underlying question is: is ruffy a done deal at age 3? can he learn new tricks? my answer is emphatically yes, he can change. 3 years old for a some cairns is barely hatched, and 3 months in, you and ruffy are still getting to know each other.

[Dempsy's Mom]

I agree with the Idaho Cairns, Buffy's owner & pk. It all sounds like really good common sense advice. I am so glad that you are enjoying Ruffy and he is a loveable fun little creature with an exception. I think with time Ruffy will overcome this and I agree that he is picking up on your vibes. Three years is young. I bet Ruffy loves you so much (in just 3 months) that he is a little overprotective. He is probably very happy you found him and maybe a little insecure. Good luck and keep us informed.

[Kathryn]

T Bone was and still is quite a handful, so I hesitate to reply as though I have any expertise at all....

but, we have had one success with him at least. He also would go "postal" occasionally on walks -- but at buses rather than other dogs. And I mean he was loud, and out of control -- and I didn't dare try to even reach down to pick him up because I was afraid he might bite me. At the encouragement of our trainer, I walked him regularly during those school bus passes, making him sit and then look up at me for the treat in his hand. He is very very motivated by food....and it took some time but eventually he stopped fussing at buses. For the most part! He even got to the point occasionally where, if we saw a bus, he'd look up at me to see if I was getting that treat out of my pocket.

Maybe you could try to find a good friend with a dog to play the "bus," and begin his reconditioning in a controlled environment?

[lindasue]

I agree w/Idaho Cairns - try putting him down on his side. Pegi would be a handful walking with cars, trucks, etc. Every time one went by (we live in a very residential neighborhood, but no sidewalks) she would lunch, bark, yip and go nuts. A few months ago I started with the side (used this when she was a pup) and it worked - so far for cars. She still freaks out w/the trash guys and mailman, but now they know her a laugh. If I'm not paying attention, however, she will still go for the cars. Keep it up; they hate the side thing.

[janis]

I ALWAYS agree with Idaho.... Kirby did much better after putting him on his side when he acted that way toward our jogging neighbor. I devour programs like Me or the dog - and Milano's show - they seen to be successful with cases like this - similar to what Kathryn was describing. I think one key is remaining calm yourself. When I start to freak out so does the dog. Good luck, hang in there!

[sanford]

Thanks for the replies! It's really helpful to know that Ruffy's behavior is not unique. I'm definitely going to follow Idaho Cairn's good advice & try putting Ruffy on his side. I completely forgot to attempt this, even though it's been described on this forum previously. (Just like Ruffy, I often need to be told something twice - or more, before I actually "get it!").

I don't think the suggestion to bring Ruffy to the large dog run would work right now. The last time we were there, he incurred the strong disapproval of some owners, as well as the anger of the large dogs that he attacked. I appreciate the suggestion to try doggie day care and wish it were possible because the local one is a wonderful facility, but they won't accept belligerent/aggressive dogs.

The idea that Ruffy may be exhibiting aggression toward others out of protective or possessive feelings for me is very intriguing. Although he's been with me for so short a time for such feelings to have developed so strongly, on the other hand...he has become extremely attached to and focused on me... we are together 24/7. I'm going to ponder this one!

PK - I'm happy to say that Ruffy is good with sit/stay. I'm going to use this command and add a treat, as per Kathryn's description. (Thankfully, Ruffy is very food motivated!). The trainer I worked with seems to have fallen off the edge of the earth! Maybe Ruffy was too much for her? She, Ruffy and I walked together with her large, very laid-back black lab, the type of dog that would send Ruffy into a rage. Nothing happened. We were both dumbfounded, but I suppose this is good news. The trainer said she was going to set up a meeting with a large golden retriever and see how that goes. Perhaps the bad weather has prevented her from following up with me. I'll just have to keep after her!

At the risk of sounding defensive, I'll say that the idea that my anxious vibes may be triggering Ruffy's behavior, may not be accurate... In my post I was intentionally giving a one-sided picture in order to stress my concerns. In reality, walking with Ruffy is the best, happiest part of my day. As Cesar Milan would say, I actually do have a "calm/assertive" demeanor in dealing with Ruffy - and other dogs as well.

Tomorrow is graduation day from Basic Obedience class. Ruffy has learned his name, (I'm particularly proud of that milestone!).

His sit, stay, up, down are all excellent, (as long as a treat is involved). Heeling/loose leash walking is tolerable, but only with pinch collar. Leave it is pretty good, and so is sit up and high-five. Drop it... who knows? Come depends on his mood!

Except for having been already housebroken, (Yippee!), Ruffy knew zero when I adopted him. For a three year old, I think he's done very well indeed and we'll continue to enjoy learning together!

[hheldorfer]

Congratulations to Ruffy on his graduation! He has obviously come a long way since you adopted him thanks to your love, care and guidance. Take this opportunity to pat yourself on the back!

[Hawkeye]

“(Just like Ruffy, I often need to be told something twice - or more, before I actually "get it!").”

This is so true…

Sanford, Congratulations on Ruffy’s progress! Your dedication is outstanding and Ruffy is repaying you in the cairn style. She gives you rewards as well. Ruffy is a very lucky girl to have you!

[eastofeden]

This is a problem that will not be solved overnight...and although it may not seem like it, from what you described you are making progress. Perhaps you need to find another trainer...the one you have been consulting may be perfectly qualified, however, they may not be the right fit for you and Ruffy.

I would also recommend you read Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell (well actually anything by Patrica McConnell). Here is a link to her website (although the book can also be found at Amazon etc...you may also want to click around she has a ton of info on her website: http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/the-feisty-fido

One more thing to say .... training NEVER ends...even though you may have completed your obedience class...you must still continue to re-enforce what you learned there throughout your dogs life. Good Luck and enjoy your Ruffy

[ScruffynMag]

Ruffy is learning with you and I'm so pleased you have each other, you'll get there slowly but surely. I too need to be told twice quite often before it sinks in

[dinib]

Does Ruffy act agressively towards large dogs in your obedience class or are you in a small dog class?

[pkcrossley]

' In reality, walking with Ruffy is the best, happiest part of my day."

lovely to know!

[Newman]

' In reality, walking with Ruffy is the best, happiest part of my day."

lovely to know!

Your avatar is adorable your cairn has the cutest face on that pic!

[finncaraid]

Hi Sanford! Does Ruffy actually attack the large dogs he encounters? I assume you probably don't get close enough to find out (don't blame you). If he was good with dogs in class or on the walk with the trainer's dog maybe he's just got that Napoleanonic complex some small dogs have. Is there a way you could turn this bad habit of his into a positive fun event? If he's into fetch, could you toss a toy before he sees the dog & then reward him when he returns with it? Maybe if he's in a happier frame of mind & focused on you before an encounter he'll have a better response. Since he does high-five, you could take it one step further to wave. Read somewhere if you teach wave, you can use it with dogs that jump on people or act aggressively towards other dogs. Another "trick" that is supposed to get another dog's positive response is bow (front end down, back end up). This signals an invitation to play. I've only lived with a Cairn for a little over 4 months but I'm learning that as long as there's something "in it" for him & something that gets his undivided attention, aka, a reward, that Finn will do almost anything I ask. These rewards vary from praise, a smile, a belly rub, a game, a treat or a "smooch". These are some things that Finn especially likes so they work with him. Would recommend the "When Pigs Fly!" book by Jane Killion for just about any issues you have now or in the future. It's primarily aimed at training terriers &, having no previous experience, it's really worked for me in figuring out how to get Finn from being an unruly (he's a Cairn, after all) puppy to being a mostly well behaved happy little guy. Since he's not quite 7 months we still have a way to go but he really has turned into the ideal buddy. I mean he actually LISTENS 98% of the time!!

[Malcolm's Dad]

Ah poor Sanford. Ruffy is living up to his name, giving the world a rough time.

Malcolm does the same thing in the park. When we see another dog coming we go to the other side of the street. There are some regular dog walkers that know Malcolm by now. Sometimes they go to the other side of the street first. Its such a shame, they want to come over and say Hi to Malcolm and pet him. We can't though because Malcolm raises such a fuss and our ears can't take his shrieks for long.

I've tried some of the methods mentioned above with limited success. There is a lady who walks a Westie. Her Westie is 10 years old. She said he was like that when he was young, very aggressive. Then as he got older he mellowed out. Malcolm wasn't as terrible this summer as he was the summer before. So I guess he might mellow with age too.

I'm not surprised the trainer gave out. I used to think all dogs were basically the same. Training is praise and treats for good behavior or performing a task. Then I got Malcolm. You can throw out everything you know about dogs when you get a Cairn. They are very much like cats. For example train any other dog to sit and they will sit, it becomes automatic, they will sit every time. Malcolm knows sit. But like a cat he might sit or not. It depends on his mood. He is very, very independent like a cat.

He stalks squirrels. At the park he will lay flat in the yoga position, waiting for the right time to strike. Most dogs will charge after their prey. Malcolm moves slowly and stalks like a cat. Perhaps you can find a cat trainer to work with Ruffy.

I was happy to read you enjoy some walks with Ruffy. I know how you feel when you want your dog to enjoy other people and dogs. I guess we just have to keep working with these little guys. Good luck.

[sanford]

Does Ruffy actually attack the large dogs he encounters? ... maybe he's just got that Napoleanonic complex some small dogs have. ... Read somewhere if you teach wave, you can use it with dogs that jump on people or act aggressively towards other dogs. Another "trick" that is supposed to get another dog's positive response is bow (front end down, back end up). This signals an invitation to play. as there's something "in it" for him & something that gets his undivided attention, aka, a reward, that Finn will do almost anything I ask. Would recommend the "When Pigs Fly!" book by Jane Killion for just about any issues you have now or in the future.

Thanks for the input. Yes, Ruffy does attack other dogs. I've had to yank him off larger dogs twice so far, which is one reason why we no longer go to the large dog run. It turns out that he's hostile toward small dogs his own size as well. It took me a while to figure out that he growls very low at them and they back off right away, but he's not gotten physical with them. Now I tell all owners of approaching dogs to keep their distance. (This has not been a problem for me. Most folks are neighborhood people. They understand & many have thanked me for letting them know). If Ruffy spots an approaching dog before I do, or sees one across the street, I'm not able to redirect him with a sit, no, stay or leave it command. He's oblivious to offers of yummy treats once he's triggered. If however, I see the dog first, I can get him respond to a No, Stay or leave it and I consider this to be progress!

dinib - When I enrolled Ruffy in obedience class, I requested that he be put with larger dogs, but I was told there was no room, so we ended up with a class comprised of Ruffy and one small poodle. The 2 dogs completely ignored each other and the poodle never returned. That just left me, Ruffy and the trainer for the balance of the classes, so I guess you could say we had private lessons, even though I would have preferred for him to have been with other dogs. Maybe they didn't want to risk putting Ruffy and large dogs together? At any rate, I'm planning on doing the next level of training with Ruffy, but only if there are other dogs in the class as well!

I took eastofeden's suggestion and ordered "Feisty Fido" from Amazon. I'll look into "When Pigs Fly" after that.

IGotAHome: Unlike Malcom, Ruffy doesn't stalk squirrels, he charges after them at 100 mph and chases them 5 feet up the tree! But you may have come up with the solution all cairn terrier owners have been searching for!..."Find a cat trainer!!!"

[Islander]

Sanford, the trainer that Gus & I went to for puppy class and next level also offers what she calls "Growly Dog" classes, I think with just a few dogs at a time, where she focuses on these responses. Must be something like that in NY? If you were planning to do another level anyway...