Cairns vs Norwich

[jo_]

We've interested in either a Cairn or Norwich Terrier and wondering which breed would be best for us. This is our "list of wants"... LOL! Anyone know which would be best?

- while we understand all terriers are not reliable off lead we would like to be able to train our dog to go from house to car without a lead, or not fear they'll dart out the house or car door while open, and possible be escorted for bathroom breaks while travelling without a lead

- we are avid campers and canoers - would like a dog that enjoys the water but is not apt to jump out of the canoe!

- are planning on puppy school and willing to dedicate time to properly training our dog, but have to confess are first time dog owners

- would prefer a dog with good balance of independence and desire for attention/companionship

- is one breed less likely to attempt to kill any squirrel or bird that enters our yard?

Help?

Thanks!!

jo

[Tracy A.]

I do know that finding a Norwich breeder might be harder. I think that the short legged terriers are have simular personalities and hunting skills. I think it's more up to the personality of the dog that dictates if they are hunters or not.

[Idaho Cairns]

Bear in mind that the following comes to you without any first hand knowledge of Norwich Terriers and years of experience with Cairns. For many years I attempted to purchase a Norwich and found the process really frustrating--Norwich's are notoriously hard to come by--the litters are small and there are few breeders. I went to several dog shows and talked to many breeders and came to the conclusion that, unless you "know someone" that you couldn't even get in the queue to get a future puppy! I have the impression that Norwich breeders have in the past and probably still continue to restrict ownership of this fine little terrier. I got acquainted with Norwich Terriers during this stint and I must say that they are pleasant little dogs--alert, happy, pleasant, and possessing every quality that any terrier lover would want. Given the opportunity, I would take one in my home in a minute. I get the impression that Norwich's are a bit less hard headed than the average Cairn. They are small but I assume they are as rugged as Cairns--hardy little dogs and nice dogs. If you are able to obtain a Norwich, I would tell you to jump at the chance--they are hard to come by and especially so since little "Rocky" took best of show at Westminster!

Yes, you can train a Cairn not to bolt from the driveway to car--ours will not because they are so excited to get in the car and go where ever it is we are going to take them that it is no problem. However, any dog will bolt at any time when it sees something of interest so if you want to always protect a dog--particularly on a busy street you probably ought to leash them. Cairns will chase as quickly as any so be careful with them when they are not tethered. I would never allow mine off leash in a highway or street setting--a rest area, park, etc. in order to let them relieve themselves--they can get away in an instant and depending on the stimulus, cannot be stopped by verbal command--if it excites them, they will not listen to a command.

I am a camper (motorhome) and our dogs have never been a problem in campgrounds--they are quiet, well mannered with humans, and rugged enough for hiking, swimming, and general exploring. We have never worn them out. They are indeed "happy campers" and ours love the water--haven't had them in many boats but the few times I have, they did not jump out.

Cairns are smart and can be trained easily--depending on the lesson. They are not Labs--instant response to muted commands is not their thing but they quickly learn what is acceptable behavior and what is not and can be taught to be good dogs.

In my opinion, Cairns are extremely laid back, very "go with the flow" kind of dogs. Ours love children and love to interact with children--to a fault because they always will seek out a child and that is sometimes scary to little ones.

If you want, as you say, an affectionate but independent dog, you will do no better than a Cairn--those two qualities define the Cairn Terrier--they aren't, except when you don't want them to be, lap dogs but do seem to need human touch and companionship for part of their day.

Our mornings are filled with one of two Cairns coming to us for scratches, pets, and compliments--after which they will wander away to bask in their having been reinforced.

Our Cairns are quiet--we have not allowed them to bark excessively--they know and obey the rules under most circumstances--doorbells and knocks on the door are beyond their ability to mind or control.

Every Cairn I have owned will chase a squirrel or a bird--only one has actually killed a critter and she no longer will try to dispatch another animal. Some Cairns will kill, quickly and forcefully, others will not. Remember what terriers of all breeds were bred to do--there are no guarantees that you will have a merciful terrier--luck of the draw.

The only thing I can think of about a Norwich is that they are more short coupled than Cairns, are smaller, and I presume, easier to restrain or to catch if they start after something--so, tho I do not really know, I suspect that a Norwich might be a bit easier to handle under normal circumstances.

That's all I have--probably too much information but I will tell you this, if you are looking for a rugged, fun, easy to maintain, friendly, and intelligent dog, most terrier breeds are your ticket--particularly these terriers historically bred to satisfy the needs of the farmers in Scotland, England, and Ireland--there is just something so delightful about dogs that have come from those areas. Great little dogs.

Hope that helps--I'm sure some of our members have had more extensive experience with Norwich Terriers and can give you better insight into the breed.

[jo_]

Thank you for such an informative email! Definitely not too much information. I have been talking with many breeders of both and you are right, the Norwich are hard to come by and can be quite expensive. I have found some online that are available (or soon to be) but am a bit suspicious as to why they are not spoken for and why they are a 1/3 of the price of other Norwiches. Now that said, these do not have "champion bloodlines" or "champion sired" so maybe that's the difference? We have no interest in show dogs or breeding so that's not really a concern, but I do want to ensure our pup is healthy.

We were leaning towards Cairns, but had come across an owner that had instilled some doubt and fear into us. But that said, who's to say the owner wasn't the root cause of his "unruly" dog.

Thank you again for your insight. You've restored my faith that a Cairn would be a great fit!!

[Brianne_Kathrine]

It is true that Cairns are not always relaible off lead, but its not impossible. My Cairn cannot be trusted off lead...although he is so close to being at that point. I have let him off lead in a few specific places under very controled circumstances, but I'm still somewhat cautious. Its taken a lot of intense training to get Benny close to the point of being allowed off lead. My mom has a Cairn that is wonderful off lead and she did not need to be trained to do so.

My Cairn is the best swimmer I have ever seen. He actually puts labs to shame in the swimming department. However, my mom's Cairn hates to even get her feet wet. So it obviously depends on the Cairn.

Although this is a Cairn Terrier message board and we are all madly in love with our little Cairns, I wonder if you have also considered a Westie. I have a male Cairn and a female Westie. The Westie is very similar to the Cairn and has many of the same traits. My Westie does just fine off the lead and is a very athletic/independant little thing. You may want to consider a Westie as well.

Overall, I do not think you will be disappointed with a little terrier. They are such fun dogs and will keep you on your toes. There has not been a dull moment in my house since the day I brought Benny home.

[kjwarnold]

Ditto what Idaho Cairns said. We've had 3 Cairns and just love them to pieces. They fit our personalities (they're independent and entertaining, not needy) and they're always ready to go. We also travel in an RV and they love to go to different campgrounds and meet new people. We've taught them how to be good campers (no excessive barking, meet people by sitting politely, etc.) and they both enjoy swimming and boating. We haven't had Kirby in a canoe, but we've taken Packy canoeing and he did not try to jump out. Again, that's probably due to training. And they both love kids and are well-behaved with them. If you start out young getting them used to having their tailed pulled, ears handled, paws handled, etc., then they won't be tempted to snap when an unknowing child reaches out. That's probably true with any dog though, not just Cairns.

Good luck in your search and if you bring a Cairn into your family, be sure to use this forum for lots of great advice and new friends.

[Tracy A.]

The gal I take grooming lessons from shows norwich terriers, the last time I was there she had 1 puppy and it was 'pet quality' and it was 2k... mind you 'fiona' was such a little charmer i would have taken her in a seconds... but 2k for a non-show dog isn't in my budget. PM me if you'd like her information, but she is in Ohio.

[lizcali]

Hi,

We are the owner of a 6 month old Norfolk Terrier. The Norfolk and Norwich Terriers were part of the same AKC breed but a few years ago the two breeds were separated into two distinct breeds. I understand that the Norwich and Norfolk have some differences in personality but believe they are fairly similar. We were looking into both Cairns and Norfolks for a while. Both breeds seemed wonderful. We opted for the Norfolk because we wanted to travel with our dog and not put them in the cargo section on flights so the smaller size of the Norfolk was more compatible with taking them onboard with us. Some Cairns may be fine for flight but there was a chance of our pup becoming larger and making it more difficult so we opted for the Norfolk.

In the process, we talked to many breeders. I did speak to a few owners that had both Norfolk and Cairns. They stated that the Norfolk may be a bit more mellow than the Cairn. But that being said, probably the most important thing is working with a reputable breeder. The Norfolk and Norwich do have some health issues, as may most pure bred lines, and it is very important to work with a breeder that has done key health checks on the parents to help reduce the risk of your pup inheriting a serious condition. Also, through my research I have heard a number of times that the temperament of the parents can play a big part in the temperment of the pups. It is well worth your time to talk to many different breeders to understand the temperament of their line and any known health issues.

I would believe that both the Norwich or the Cairn, with the proper training, could fit your needs well. I agree with the previous comment about off leash though. With Terriers, it is so hard to predict if they will take off when seeing a bird or other animal. We had a Jack Russell prior to our Norfolk and he could not be trusted off leash if we were anywhere near cars. I did not want to take the chance. He used to take off out the front door when young if he had the opportunity. After a 2 week intensive dog training course, he was much better but we still did not trust him off leash until he was much slower as a senior dog.

If you do go for the Norwich, you will need to spend time meeting the breeders and expect to pay quite a bit of money for the puppy. The breeder will likely ask you to fill out a questionnaire with questions about your home environment, etc. The best to you in your search. We are so happy with our new companion.

[cairnsby3]

Regarding the off leash desire, I think once you have a puppy, it will be less important than you are thinking now. I feel that mine are pretty reliable off leash, BUT I have to watch them like a hawk. If I see them looking at something, I need to call before they dart, not after, so sometimes it's just not worth the effort. I had a breed before the Cairns that could be off leash, no problem. Since I have had Cairns, I just can't even imagine assuming my dog would just hang about with no leash. It's what you get used to.

[bradl]

To give a sense of the off-leash thing - my most relaxed and worry-free hunter is Stella. We occasionally get flunked by AKC judges because she stays too close to me. I don't care; indeed I love it. However, my heart would STOP if she were to leave the house to go to the car off-leash. The problem is the consequences of failure. In the field I might have to wait out my dog to return from a rabbit-chase, or mount a search-and-rescue effort to locate her if she were stuck somewhere. In my neighborhood, a moment's distraction can mean she's dead before I can say, "Gosh, she never bolted like THAT before."

[Tracy A.]

Stella. We occasionally get flunked by AKC judges because she stays too close to me. I don't care; indeed I love it.

She's a daddy's girl

In my neighborhood, a moment's distraction can mean she's dead before I can say, "Gosh, she never bolted like THAT before."

Or OMG it's a leaf, let's get it! I am with you, I do not trust my dogs one bit. I am happy, pleased, and suprprised when they obey, however I never take it for granted. Just the other night Mettwurst did not want to be locked in the kitchen when we left... little bugger put us on a chase in the house trying to catch him...he even ran through the 'n'tables and coffee table in the living room. He hasn't put on antics like that since he was a year old. I don't know what got into him, maybe he felt he deserved a car ride... but had we opened the front door during that moment who knows what he would have done. He would have ran between legs, etc. The only dog i've ever had that was 100% reliable off leash was a GSD who we got a CD with...other than that none.

[Sam I Am]

I for one would never let Jock off leash.. his brain blots me out if there is something that triggers his hunting instinct. I am always horrified at how many dogs (of all breeds) have no basic commands and are let off leash. Silly owners! A dog that does not have total recall (under all circumstances) should never be let off leash. My opinion only.

So getting back to whether a Norwich or a Cairn, the next question I would ask is have you ever owned a dog? If not perhaps the other suggestion was made that a Westie might be the ticket or perhaps one of the none terrier groups. Ahhh I know shoot me now, but having had terriers pretty much for most of the dogs I have owned thru the years, they are not the easiest breed to start off with if this is your first dog. I love terriers... all kinds, but they take time and a bit of experience

[jo_]

Our lack of experience has been something we've discussed. I have never trained a dog, while my partner had a very well trained lab. But from what I've read, labs are pretty much the complete opposite of a Cairn! I am prepared to do my homework, attend puppy school and whatever else is necessary. Hopefully will and determination will make up for lack of experience.

Thank you all for sharing your stories. The love for your dogs shows in your responses!

[BetsyNoodle]

We considered a Norwich but could not find a reputable breeder. We adopted our beautiful Cairn, Murphy, from a Miniature Schauzer Rescue Organization, of all places. We refer to him as our Cairn "Toddler", as he is such a joy and is so loving, but can be a little stubborn when he wishes!

Regarding your "off leash" questions: Brad has an excellent point. I do pet grief counseling in my spare time, and I cannot tell you how often I have heard the following phrase uttered through tears, "I could always trust my little dog off leash, but this one time he just bolted". Most terriers, by nature, possess a high prey drive and love the hunt. This means any distraction can be an instant--and possibly dangerous--lure for your little dog. I personally cannot imagine Murphy off leash anywhere, much less off leash while traveling to unfamiliar places. Our Labrador, Gracie, on the other hand, is well-trained and will stop on a dime. A Labrador is very different from a terrier. That being said, having Gracie even temporarily off leash, makes me nervous. I have just seen too many "off leash" accidents break too many hearts.

[jo_]

You all make very good points. They are animals and now matter how well trained, you never exactly know how a dog will react. I used to own a cat that I would not let outside without a lead (my neighbours thought I was nuts!)

A previous post suggested that once we have a dog we'll probably realize the off-lead desire is not as important as we might think now. After reading your comments, it's already becoming less and less important.

[bradl]

I will say this about our little terrier friends: they have a way of rewiring what we think we want. What started as "How do I stop them digging in the yard?" is now "Why would I do that? I love the smell of dirt." I have to say, I am a better, more tolerant, more flexible person as a result of being owned by Cairns. I wouldn't have it any other way.

My very best advice is to meet as many of both breeds as you possibly can. Go to shows, go to agility trials, go to earthdog tests. Visit breeders if they are willing, even if they don't have any dogs to place. Most breeders are thrilled when people do their homework and are more than happy to talk about the good and the bad. And I'll tell you honestly, most breeders are keen to make the very best placements possible for their dogs, and a good, knowledgeable home tends to float to the top of the list. (Many breeders I know won't even make a list - they simply make the best placements they can, period.)

Good luck, whatever you do!

[Idaho Cairns]

Jodene, I want to make a parenthetical comment about terriers in general and Cairns specifically. I would agree that "some" terrier breeds are difficult for new and inexperienced dog owners--in my opinion Jacks, Fox, Boston, and certainly Pits, as well as other terriers can be a handful, however, I think Cairns make a perfect choice for new dog owners because of their size, intelligence, and their suitability with children and adults. I have recommended Cairns to folks that are looking for their first family pet and have never felt I have given anyone bad advice. There is some belief that Cairns are "difficult" as pets, I disagree strongly.

Further, if you are looking at Norwich Terriers then you are used to some high, high prices for a puppy and if you are willing to spend that kind of money for a dog, you will have no problem finding a Cairn puppy that is superb. If you commit to paying at the high end of the scale for a Cairn you will be dealing with a select group of quality professional and hobby Cairn breeders that are dedicated to the breed and raise high quality dogs, dogs that have a genetic propensity to be classic Cairns--you will get a healthy, human familiar, hand raised, socialized puppy that will be a cut above.

I have had dogs from both cut rate breeders and quality breeders and will tell you that in Cairns, you get what you pay for--big time. For half what you would expect to pay for a Norwich you will have your choice of some excellent pet quality Cairn breeders.

Do your homework and take some time and effort to find one of these "good" Cairn breeders and it will make a real difference in the kind of Cairn that you take into your home.

[jo_]

Thank you. Again very insightful. I found some information on what to look for in a good breeder. The list included:

- visit the kennel (looking for clean, healthy living quarters)

- meet the mother (and if at all possible the father)

- ask to see health certificates

- insist on signed bill of sale stating puppy is being sold as pure bred

- written guarantee

- dog has been uniquely/permanently identified (tattoo/microchip)

- in Canada any purebred must be registered with the Canadian Kennel Club

Anything else I'm missing?

[Tami]

My husband and I haven't had dogs since we were young but we chose to get a Cairn terrier puppy about a month ago. We absolutely LOVE him.

I don't work so I've been able to spend lots of time every day with training him, going to puppy class and puppy socials and it's really starting to pay off. However I highly doubt that I'd ever really be comfortable with him off leash anyplace other than our backyard (and probably only when we can keep an eye out for him). All I can say is that I see how fast he can run and I would be scared to death if that happened outside of a building or fenced in outside area.

All in all, we're so very, very happy that we were able to find a quality breeder who was willing to sell us a puppy even though we had no interest in becoming show people. We of course think that Fearghus is perfect but I suspect that a judge would have a bit of a problem with the little band of white on his tail and the bits of white hairs that are in his eyebrows.

[Idaho Cairns]

Thank you. Again very insightful. I found some information on what to look for in a good breeder. The list included:

- visit the kennel (looking for clean, healthy living quarters)

- meet the mother (and if at all possible the father)

- ask to see health certificates

- insist on signed bill of sale stating puppy is being sold as pure bred

- written guarantee

- dog has been uniquely/permanently identified (tattoo/microchip)

- in Canada any purebred must be registered with the Canadian Kennel Club

Anything else I'm missing?

If you can visit a couple of long time breeders. Get and follow up on references--past buyers. Learn what characteristics are unique for Cairns and study the litter for individual puppies that exemplify those characteristics--lack of fear, curiosity, willing to be handled, assertiveness, etc. Spend some time watching/handling each puppy. I envy you--I would love to be finding a new Cairn puppy.

[dinib]

Our lack of experience has been something we've discussed. I have never trained a dog, while my partner had a very well trained lab. But from what I've read, labs are pretty much the complete opposite of a Cairn! I am prepared to do my homework, attend puppy school and whatever else is necessary. Hopefully will and determination will make up for lack of experience

You are in the road to being a responsible owner. I took both of my Cairns through four levels of training, starting with Puppy I. To be honest the classes are more for the owners than for the dogs. The classes teaches yo to communicate with our dogs. I made recalls my priority. My dogs are excellent at 'come', but not so good with 'stay'.

When I lived in San Francisco, I let my dogs off leash at the unfenced dog parks. However, these parks had natural borders like the ocean on one side and cliffs on the other. Since vie moved to NJ, I haven't let them off leash other than a fully contained dog park. Too many squirrels, deer, birds and woodchucks (I've never in my life ever seen one of those before!).

[cairnsby3]

In buying from a reputable experienced breeder, whether Cairn or Norwich, be prepared to wait. Most of them have a list when the puppies are born (or before). I had to wait for both the ones I have now. Also be prepared for the fact that you aren't going to get to "pick". You can probably pick the sex you want. After you explain to the breeder about your lifestyle and what you expect of the dog, they will probably pick for you. So don't start out thinking you have to have a specific color (lots of Cairns change color anyway). My last two, I picked because I know they came from lines that were health tested for everything. I know they came from a line with a good temperment. I was strong on what sex I wanted and I wanted a lively puppy that would make a good agility dog, those were my only 2 deal breakers.

[Oliver's Mom]

Being a first time dog owner myself I have to say that sharing my life with a Cairn for the past 8 months has been wonderful!! Unfortunately we did not get to experience the puppy years because we adopted him from a local shelter at 1 1/2 years. Cairn's really are wonderful little dogs and though they tend to "forget" how to listen at times, they are just as loyal and loving (when they feel you deserve it ) as any other dog I have come across. I have to say that I am officially madly in love with these little pups!! Even my husband who has had much more "people pleasing" dogs in his past has stated that we will only have Cairn's from now on Regardless of your decision I wish you all the luck and (of course) hope to hear all about your new addition (also hoping you choose a Cairn ).

[cairnrescueleague]

If there was only one thing I could tell someone about a cairn (any of the small scruffy terriers for that matter), it's that they can NEVER be off-leash unless they're in a securely fenced area. And they should not be left in a securely fenced area unsupervised.

[Sue G]

I wholeheartedly agree that off leash reliability will be much less important after you get your dog. Before my Cairn I had a wonderful Border Collie. Best dog in the whole world. He never had a leash on him. I live in a busy town, and regularily walked him on the sidewalks without a leash. If he got a little ahead, I would tell him to "wait up", and he would freeze like a statue until I got up next to him and would say "OK". It was VERY cool to have a dog like that. I didn't find out until AFTER I got Ozzy that terriers (my first one!) will NOT do that! I had myself convinced that I was the best dog trainer that ever lived and could teach any dog to listen to me off leash until I got Ozzy. I was crushed at first, but after I had the little guy for a few weeks all that seemed to fade away and now I couldn't care less. He has so many other wonderful traits, that I don't even think about the leash thing anymore. I'm telling you...off leash was EXTREMELY important to me. I even posted about it more than once when I first got Ozzy. It's just not important anymore.