teaching scent discrimination

[PeppersMom]

Does anyone out there have any methods or tips on teaching scent discrimination to Cairns. I tried it for the first time with Pepper who is a sniffing fiend and he did not like to peg board at all...

[eastofeden]

I have seen folks take fishing line and tie the "extra" articles togather (about 6-8 inches of line between the articles), thus rendering them difficult to carry. The marked/scented article is loose and much easier for the dog to pick up.

[mattoleriver]

Disclaimer: I have taught dogs to successfully work the scent articles, however, none of those dogs were Cairns. It takes a helluva trainer to compete at the Utility level with a Cairn and I doubt that I am the person to do it. The top competitive breeds in Obedience---herding dogs and retrievers---have hundreds of years of breeding for a desire to work for a human handler. Cairns---terriers and hounds, generally---have hundreds of years of breeding for a dog who will hunt for himself without human supervision. It takes a pretty special dog and handler to overcome the very things that make a terrier a terrier and have him willingly become subserviant to his handler.

Now, what is the specific problem?

1. The dog must leave the handler and go to the scent articles. Is your dog doing that?

2. When the dog gets to the articles will he pick up an article with the intent of returning it to you?

3. Does the dog try to locate the scented article or just grab the first one that is handy?

4. Does he just not get the idea of searching for a scented article?

5. Does the pegboard frighten him?

6. How many and which articles are you starting with?

George

[PeppersMom]

Pepper very reliable on the retrieve. I have also trained him to reliably retrieve the articles. I have a peg board and a rubber mat with ties. I am just using one extra article right now and having him watch while I put a second article on the mat. He seems perturbed by the mat or peg board and will try to pick up the article tied down or will not pick up the free one at all. I will point out the one to pick up and then he will do it and bring it to me..big praise then and a treat. The scent thing hasn't come into play at all. He just doesn't get that at all yet. It is early on in this training..I don't think he likes the mat or pegboard.

[PeppersMom]

Yes I would say he grabs the first article handy

[cairnsby3]

How about feeding him a couple of meals on the pegboard (no articles) so he gets over not liking it? I have started articles with Spring, I bought a big piece of grid plastic that you do needlepoint with and tie the articles with thin wire. She will usually get the right one the first couple of times, but after that gets impatient and just wants to bring whatever is first. Ah the thinking cairn! I have to admit I have not worked on it alot. Spring's biggest problem is the hold, she just doesn't want to hold anything securely without mouthing. Which probably means I just need to do alot more of it.

[Karen]

Are there any good books or videos on how to teach the scent articles? Even though Mac may never get out of Open, I'd like to work on the scent articles with him since I bought them (custom made) 3 yrs ago when I thought we'd whip thru Open. He also has no problem carrying both the leather and metal dumbbells around. I've seen friends with retrievers who have to work a long time to get the dog to pick up the metal ones. Mac picked up metal one and brought it to me when I tossed it on the floor after they arrived in the mail. He loves to sniff and will retrieve any DB, so I want to see how he'll do with this.

Since he's semi-retired from agility, I'd like to keep him busy with something else.

Karen

[PeppersMom]

Ha! I looked at my last post and laughed. Last night in class Pepper was totally clueless on the "reliable retrieve" part and now I have marching orders from my trainer to go back to a forced retrieve. Plus he took off on me during class to say hi to a toy spaniel. So it was not a banner night for us! We are going to stick to 2 utility exercises in class for the next 10 week...signals and go outs.

[bradl]

Heh. We're still working on *taking* the dumbbell, never mind retrieving it. Scent discrimination consists of identifying which pocket is carrying the treats

[Tracy A.]

Ha! I looked at my last post and laughed. Last night in class Pepper was totally clueless on the "reliable retrieve" part and now I have marching orders from my trainer to go back to a forced retrieve. Plus he took off on me during class to say hi to a toy spaniel. So it was not a banner night for us! We are going to stick to 2 utility exercises in class for the next 10 week...signals and go outs.

I don't know what it is about the wooden dumbell, but none of my dogs ever liked to hold it...

You know I recall some of my trainers using treats in the items at first to help teach scent. I also recall someone using their husbands dirty sock....

[eastofeden]

For the dog that refuses to pick up an object try taking a piece of rawhide and soaking it until pliable...and then wrap it around the bar (so it encases it) of the dumpbell and let it dry. This may help encourage the reluctant dog to begin to pickup and hold the object. Of course you eventually have to get them to hold the object w/out the rawhide.

Anyway...training with Cairns is always fun...you never know what they will do next. Keep your sense of humor with you at ALL times

[PeppersMom]

I have a friend who is trying what I think is a really innovative approach..she is teaching her dogs to retrieve and hold other household objects. Ex: pencils, feather dusters, anything that can be comfortably held in dog's mouth. The idea is to teach the dog to hold anything mom or dad says. It makes a dumbell look really easy! BTW she has 2 Cairns and a schnauzer mix.

[PeppersMom]

Teaching signals was hilarious too..at home we do a 'Drop" and then "rollover" Pepper is conditioned to the sequence so the first time we did it in class, you guessed it, he did his rollover and when I didn't give him food he proceeded to go through his whole repetoire of tricks. Sit pretty, rollover, flip finish, speak..you name it, he did it! You can't blame a Cairn for trying!

[shergry]

Hey, I feel for Pepper....I mean he DID the whole sequence of tricks for Nothing!! Just kidding, wish I could have seen that...what a HOOOOT! Keep trying someday he is going to ....SURPRISE you.

[mattoleriver]

Griffin was very stubborn about retrieving the dumbell but now he really enjoys it. I don't know which of us would have won the battle of wills if I hadn't discovered his Achilies' heel. It turns out that I have his undivided attention at feeding time. When he sees the other dogs already eating he will do anything I ask if it will get him fed a little quicker. It took about two weeks of working no more than three minutes per day just before feeding to turn him into a retrieving fool! All I ask for is some small success before I will feed him. We're tightening up hand signals now.

My preference---well, Griffin's preference---for a wooden dumbell is the poplar 5x4 from max200.com. It is a relatively soft wood that is very light weight and he just seems to prefer it to the hardwood or plastic dumbells. I like it because it has a much "deader" action than the hardwood or plastic dumbells; if I throw it in a fairly high arc it hits the ground and stays put! I hate throwing the dumbell over the jump and having it bounce way off to one side.

Ha! I looked at my last post and laughed. Last night in class Pepper was totally clueless on the "reliable retrieve" part and now I have marching orders from my trainer to go back to a forced retrieve. Plus he took off on me during class to say hi to a toy spaniel.

Sounds like the last training session before every show around here!

Now, back to scent discrimination:

I've seen people have success with pegboards/tiedown mats and also tying the articles together with monofilament. So far, I've gotten by without any of those aids. It's a matter of personal preference and also a matter of what works for a particular dog and handler.

I prefer to have my dogs retrieve after a sit rather than directly from the turn. I use the command "find mine". I prefer the turn and sit option because that is the only option available in the Directed Retrieve exercise---I gotta keep these things consistent so that I don't screw up!

I like to start by setting out one metal article and having my dog retrieve that. I choose to use the metal article because each of my dogs has chosen leather over metal when given a free choice. I figure I might as well let 'em get used to picking up the metal.

When I know that the dog will reliably retrieve an article I add a second article. Of course one of these articles will be scented and the other will not. If the dog just happens to pick up the correct article I immediately give very lavish praise, I don't wait for the dog to return to me to start the praise. If the dog appears to be showing too much interest in the unscented article I repeat the "find mine" command and encourage (pointing, etc.) the dog to pick up the scented article. I try my best not to yell "NO!" as the dog approaches the wrong article and I try just as hard not to yell %#*&! when he actually brings the wrong one all the way back to me---alas, I'm only human, sometimes I yell!

When the dog can reliably find the scented article I start adding more articles and a mixture of leather and metal articles.

Several years ago I had a dog who just didn't seem to get it. One day while grocery shopping a small jar of Mohawk Valley Limberger Cheese Spread caught my eye. Inspiration! I put a small dab of the smelly concoction in the palm of my hand and rubbed it in like hand lotion. It wasn't so overpowering as to be offensive but it did definitely give my hands a certain dirty feet aroma. When I scented an article, by golly, it was scented! This was the "edge" that the dog needed to finally make the connection. Unfortunately this product is no longer available and I can't think of anything else that would be as effective and handy to use. Gotta be careful not to contaminate an article making it useless.

George

[bradl]

Several years ago I had a dog who just didn't seem to get it. One day while grocery shopping a small jar of Mohawk Valley Limberger Cheese Spread caught my eye. [....snip...] Unfortunately this product is no longer available and I can't think of anything else that would be as effective and handy to use.

Good news. When I found this, they had 8 on hand

p.s. Not too sure about that site, though.

[mattoleriver]

Good news. When I found this, they had 8 on hand

p.s. Not too sure about that site, though.

Hey, not a bad price for a cheese "spread" considering oil @ $100/BBL!

George

[Tracy A.]

Several years ago I had a dog who just didn't seem to get it. One day while grocery shopping a small jar of Mohawk Valley Limberger Cheese Spread caught my eye. [....snip...] Unfortunately this product is no longer available and I can't think of anything else that would be as effective and handy to use.

Good news. When I found this, they had 8 on hand

p.s. Not too sure about that site, though.

Mattoleriver, Limberger is stinky, we use it to make catfish bait! It's a softcheese, so wouldn't any brand do? (use use latex gloves when working with it, otherwise your hands smelll for days)

[mattoleriver]

Mattoleriver, Limberger is stinky, we use it to make catfish bait! It's a softcheese, so wouldn't any brand do? (use use latex gloves when working with it, otherwise your hands smelll for days)

Stinky hands are the whole idea! One thing you don't want to do is apply a strong scent like Limberger directly to an article and risk permanently contaminating it. Limberger is not the smelliest thing I've used as a training aid/treat. I used anchovie paste as an extra special reward for one of my dogs but I wasn't about to rub that smelly stuff into my hands.

The Mohawk Valley Spread was very creamy, about the consistency of toothpaste, and a tiny bit could be easily rubbed in to give one's hands the aroma of dirty feet. Dogs love stinky things!

George

[Karen]

I also use the wooden DB from max200.com for Mac, I think the 5x5 size, and it's made of poplar. It's the lighter of the 2 woods that they use for the DBs. I've got 3 of them. It's one piece so no risk of an end suddenly falling off. I started with a heavy, white plastic DB that he didn't really care for so poor retrieving. I switched to the wooden DB and his retrieving improved 100% or more. One of the 3 is slightly chewed so he really likes it! Max200 comes to the big Xmas show near us so I was able to have Mac right there for the perfect fit, and to see all their different sizes and weights.

Karen

[Speedy]

Hi, do you use the clicker or not? I started the sent discrimination in two ways. First with old washed socks and one of them had some sausage in it and so Speedy had to search this socks and then, after finding the right sock, he got the sausages... In Switzerland we train obedience with FCI rules and our dogs has to search a small wooden stick. We start with one stick and we hide it under grass or in high grass and so he learns to search. Later one we put al lot of neutral sticks in the grass and his stick is about 2-3 meters away from the others, but still hidden. So he learns to not look at the sticks, he learns to use the nose... on www.obedience.ch you will see Speedy searching...Best regards - Marlise

[mattoleriver]

Hi Marlise,

welcome to the group!

I am not familiar with FCI Scent Discrimination but the sausage in a sock training method sounds very much like how I started training my dog for AKC Tracking. In AKC tests/trials Tracking is one sport and Obedience is an entirely different sport that includes Scent Discrimination. Tracking is done in an open area (field, forest, urban area, etc.) with the dog on a 40' lead while Scent Discrimination is just one of the six exercises that a dog and handler must perform in the Utility level (third level) of Obedience. All six Utility exercises, including Scent Discrimination, take place in the (approx.) 40'x50' enclosed Obedience ring with the dog off lead.

The Rules and Regulations for both sports are more complicated than what I would be able to present here but both are available on the AKC website. AKC>Events>Rules and Regulations>Obedience or Tracking.

A very basic description of the Scent Discrimination exercise: The handler presents five identical metal articles and five identical leather articles to the judge. The judge selects one metal article and one leather article to return to the handler to be handled (scented) by the handler. The dog and handler stand in the middle of the ring and the judge handles (scents) the remaining articles and places all eight of the remaining articles in a loose cluster 20' away from the dog and handler. When the articles have been placed by the judge the dog and handler turn facing away from the judge and articles. The judge then takes one of the handler's scented articles and places it in the cluster of articles that the judge has scented. At the judge's command the dog and handler turn toward the articles and the handler sends the dog to retrieve the handler's scented article from among all of the articles. The handler may choose to retrieve either the metal article or the leather article first. After retrieving this article the process is repeated with the remaining article. The dog must retrieve both articles individually to qualify.

I have not used a clicker but I know handlers who have successfully used clickers in the early phase of Scent Discrimination training.

George

[Speedy]

Hi George, thanks for this short description of the sent discrimination. It's more difficult than FCI, I think. I saw a video about your obedience from Barbara Cecil & Gerianne Darnell "Competing with a small dog". In FCI we have 10 excercices: 1) Sit stay 2 minutes, 2) Lay down stay 4 minutes, 3) Heelwork, 4) Recall with stand and lay down, 5) Send-a-way the dog to a cone, wait 3 seconds, than send to the right or left into the middle of a box, 6) retrieve with 3 wooden articles, but the dog should never bring the middle one, 7) retrieve a metallic object over a hurdle, 8) Stand, sit and down under march, 9) sent discrimination, 10) distance control.

We have 4 classes: Beginners, Class 1, 2 and 3. Class 3 is the highest FCI-class.

In Switzerland there are only 2 or 3 Cairn terriers who compete obedience. Are there a lot in your club or country? Most people buy Border Collies or Malinois...

Marlise

[eastofeden]

Welcome Marlise,

We mostly have working/herding dogs that compete in obedience....but a few of us dedicated (or crazy!) folks do work cairns. But overall the numbers are very small in comparasion.

Unless at a specialty I have never seen another Cairn in obedience classes. But they are out there.....and those border collies just need to watch out cause my terrier is smarter than they are (all in fun :+)