Aggressive Behavior Towards Non-Cairn Brother (from another mother)

[Catalyzt]

This is really, really bothering me.

I feel, generally, like there's an odd shift happening with Spike's episodic aggression (which, for those who have not followed the saga of this Cairn X, doctors suspect has a neurological element and is related to his occasional seizures.)  It has become less of a threat to us, and less menacing to neighbors and other dogs, but it's creeping into other areas of functioning.

I don't think Spike will ever bite me in the face again, and that's not just because I know how to avoid situations where this is even possible-- for example, there are now 'safe zones' and 'safe times' when he asks permission to give me one or two kisses on the nose, and we both have confidence nothing is going to happen.  I think he also understands-- for humans-- what serious injury is, what harmless play is, and when he stumbles into the grey zone between these two ends of the spectrum, he tends to stumble in safer ways.  The last time he nipped my hands (I think I pulled his hair accidentally taking off his harness) it was not hard at all, I was wearing gloves, and I think Spike understands what gloves are.  

He also loves his brother, Bartleby.  If he's worried about Bartleby's health, he lets me know.  If I have to take Bartleby to the vet, I get a brief lecture from him on how important it is for the vet to do a good job.  When Bartleby comes back from the vet, Spike is glad to see him.

But he always has played rough with Bartleby, a little rougher than I would like.  There were always rare incidents when he would attack Bartleby-- a nip or two on his thick coat and loud, nasty snarling-- and we would have to shout to get him to stop.  And recently, he's been attacking him more frequently, maybe once every two weeks, with some malice.  Sometimes he's out of control for nearly three seconds, which is long enough for Bartleby to get hurt, though he never has been, probably because his coat is so long.  I do feel plenty of saliva on Barty's coat after this.

My terrible fear is that he injures his brother, who is at least 13 and could be 17, we have no idea.  What will happen is that Bartleby will stumble into some zone that Spike feels is off limits-- say, he'll be rooting around under the couch for something-- and Spike will go after him.  I'm afraid that sometime Spike will lose it and won't be able to control himself.  

Emotionally, this is really hard for me.  We've given him time outs, which he does not like, but I'm not sure he's getting the message-- the episodes are still far enough apart that on the 26th, I'm not sure he remembers the time out he had on the 12th.  What is needed, I think, is distraction, something to startle him and break off the attack sooner-- he needs to know that attacking Barty is a really, really big deal.  It happened again today while I was on the frickin' toilet, which really seemed devious to me.  A full three seconds before he stopped, and I couldn't get to him quickly enough for a time out to make any difference.  I sternly explained to him that this was really, really serious, and he did seem to be listening to me and be very concerned.  I wasn't loud, but he could tell I was very upset.

Bartleby, fortunately, is smart enough not to show fear.  But I can see him avoiding Spike, or tight spaces where he wouldn't be able to get away from Spike.  It is sad because I remember the first six months Spike was with us, they slept in the same doggie bed together.  That, of course, was before the seizures.  BTW, no seizures recently.

Any and all ideas are welcome.  I wish I had a high-powered squirt gun, something like that which wouldn't hurt him, but would let him know what a serious infraction this is in a way he would remember.

 

[Newman]

that's good to hear there are no seizures recently! i'm just gonna go with the Occam's razor route here, and say you need to physically separate them if you don't want spike to attack. be lucky these attacks are not full on mayhems as well, fonzie and odie (shih-tzu) used to fight until one wouldn't let go (they would have fought until death if i didn't break it up). you really don't want that happening, especially if you're the only one home and on the toilet  

spike has a such caring family, i read some of your posts he's definitely in good hands. have to do what you have to do to protect Bartleby. wishing you the best

 

Edited January 30 by Newman

[Catalyzt]

Well, yeah, that had occurred to me.

But here's what makes it tricky:  They do really love each other.  The photo below was taken days after the incident.  Bartleby clearly likes being around Spike (and vice versa), there's another dog bed three feet away, but sometimes he'd rather lie on the floor, and rather lie next to his bro.  

So what is really 'safer' -- leaving the older dog alone, separated from his pal, in his twilight years?  Or risking a long-shot confrontation?

Since I posted... it almost seems like I got through to Spike after I lectured him.  There was an incident when he bumped Bartleby playfully, just kidding around, and I praised them both, and said "Nice!" which they both seem to understand: Something the big biped likes.

There has been only one close call since then: Barty was blocking a doorway, and Spike snarled at him a little to get him to move.  Then he looked at me, like, 'Was that okay, or too much?'

I know they're not people, I shouldn't read too much into it, but that's what it seemed like.  I sternly told him to be careful, but I didn't give him a time out or sit him down for a lecture like last time.  Bartleby does block exits and entrances, and it is annoying.  

For now, I'll just watch them real close.  But yeah, I don't rule out separating them if there is any escalation.  They've lived together for three and a half years now.

 

 

 

[Sam I Am]

Does he actually bite the old boy or is it just a lot of nasty noise? Our two can sound like there is a world war going to about happen but it’s all posing and no biting .

[Catalyzt]

Yeah, he bites at him, for sure -- enough, one occasion, for Bartleby to go into the small dog 'escape wiggle' or that's what my wife said -- and he leaves saliva, but Bartleby has never had even a scratch (which is more than we can say for us) and we have looked very carefully.  Not a drop of blood, no apparent damage, not even pink skin, and Bartleby never seems particularly phased by it.  I don't know if Spike is really biting or mouthing him.

Still praising Spike when he's nice to his brother, Spike does look to me for approval, I'm petting them both at the same time.  It feels like Spike's getting the idea but I could be reading too much into it.

[Barbs Dog Logic]

Crates are the best.  We always crate train our dogs.  May I share my personal experience?  WHEN a terrier, a Cairn Terrier, goes "too far" and breaks skin, or if aggression takes a nasty turn, there is no rolling back Father Time.  Case in point, after Chyp bit and latched onto a Beagle's tail.... he never ever, ever, ever went back to his age of innocence when he never curled a lip at another dog.  I have witnessed this to be true, in other terriers I have trained.  

What's done is done and you will always have an aggressive dog that is reactive.  With that being said, we successfully raised our beloved Chyp and kept him and ALL of the hundreds of guest doggies safe from his very sharp teeth.  He enjoyed his crate, and rather than sleeping on a random dog bed, he chose to go into his crate where he would relax often laying upside down. We would say.  "Yup, Chyp is in his "man cave" again."

A CRATE for each dog clearly defines a boundary.  Clearly defines the "where" is my safe zone?  Barty is older, and likely getting senile or hard of hearing and unware that he unwittingly blocks a doorway. 

If it was me, I would never leave them loose unattended.  If it was me, I would always have one or the other in a crate when I was too busy to wear my eyes on the back of my head.  Photo attached of one or our very sweet regular clients.  She is a Westie.  She is snarky.  She is also happy to rest in a soft sided crate during her vacations spent in our home.  (Rosie's  people go places, and we give Rosie a fun week of adventures during her stay, every time she comes to visit she goes into her crate when we are not watchful. )

Please know that I love my dogs, but a CRATE is a dog's best friend..... especially if one like Barty who is older (did you say possibly 17 yrs old?) and they act senile, and other dogs read the signals incorrectly.  Please keep Barty safe in his golden years.

another photo attached, is senior boy Brinkley.  We rescued him when he was almost deaf, almost completely blind, and senile.  He had a lot of teeth removed., clearly he was no threat to our two Cairns at the time.  I put an electric collar on Chyp, to make sure that I could press the "VIBRATE" function to tell Chyp to back away from old man Brinkley.  Because Brinkley was clue less when he tottered over too close to snarky Chyp.

Hope my experience and insight sheds some light.  Please don't over anthropomorphize .  It is unfair to Barty.  To be CLEAR is to be kind.  Clear boundaries, i.e. each dog has a crate to call their own, is a very good way to keep them both in good graces.

 

The house should be your territory, not the bully behavior of Spike. The crate is the ONLY thing that a dog should be allowed to "own".  Resource guarding is not okay if display of aggression happens in YOUR house.  You make the house payments, Spike does not.  Spike is acting like an entitled bully.  Not fair to Barty. take care. give Barty a good life, it's short.

 

P.S.  Brinkley passed away peacefully in 2019. I kept  him safe.

 

  

[Catalyzt]

I understand what you are saying.  It speaks to the general principle that once a problem behavior is established, the best way to deal with problem behavior is to not allow the situation which caused it to ever happen.  It's like home defense or automobile security: There are all kinds of countermeasures you can take, but the best one is to avoid the problem happening in the first place.  Don't leave stuff in your car, leave the lights on outside, etc.

<< What's done is done and you will always have an aggressive dog that is reactive. >>

In many cases, what you say is true, but I think of it as a game of odds.  If I forget to take off Spike's harness?  (We sometimes leave it on between walks)  Then I can't take it off later, while he's lying on the couch-- or maybe I can, or maybe I'll get snarled at, or maybe I'll get nipped.  If he bites, we've got a bad situation that will probably get worse, the odds tip against us, and everyone loses.  

The best course of action?  Put Spike's leash back on, put Barty's leash on, take them out for a five minute walk, bring them in, and remove the harness in the place where he's used to it, where we never have any problems.  I should never try to take off his harness when he's lying on the couch.  

On the other hand, if what you were saying were true in all circumstances, then dogs-- and Cairns-- would be untrainable, and no violent behavior could be extinguished.  I don't think that's quite right.  This is a dog that bit me in the face and sent me to the emergency room.  Now, he can kiss me on the nose.  

How did we do that?  Well, there were many pieces to the puzzle.  But we set up a new system.  No face-to-face on the couch or the bed.  Only when Dad is sitting in his office chair.  We walk up, Dad pats his knee, we put our front paws on Dad's knee, we cock our head and do our 'Can I give you a kiss?' gesture.  Dad says yes, let's Spike kiss his nose, praises him for being gentle.  

<< With that being said, we successfully raised our beloved Chyp and kept him and ALL of the hundreds of guest doggies safe from his very sharp teeth. >>

He sounds like a terrific dog!  It is not easy to have a terrier who can be aggressive, and it seems like you found the best possible solution.

However, you have a very, very different situation at your home-- a lot of dogs coming and going.  And when I worked with my buddy at the kennel, the way I handled those dogs was very, very different from the way I handle my own at home.  When there are that many dogs around, it's a whole different deal.  You are outnumbered, outgunned-- even with three dogs and two people, the dynamics change.  

My wife works from home 50% of the time, I work from home 70% of the time.  Between the two of us, they are rarely left alone in the house.  We can provide far more consistent reinforcement than most folks-- and watch the dogs much more closely.  I could hear a snarl through two closed doors, with them in the office and me in the bedroom.  Spike still has not repeated the behavior.  We check Bartleby regularly to see if there's any saliva on his coat.  There hasn't been.  Spike will roughhouse with Bartleby a bit-- bumps him and barks, not snarls-- and Bartleby throws it right back at him, wags his tail.  When Spike does this, he looks at me like, "Was that okay?"  It's the same look he gives me if we're playing, and his teeth touch my hand by accident.

I would argue that in our situation, every day that the behavior doesn't repeat, the odds tip back in our favor.  

All that said?  I like those tent-like crates.  There are a lot of good reasons for having them, and getting the dogs used to them.   Because I think it IS a game of odds.   If there's another incident, or if the behavior returned when Bartleby gets older?  We should be ready, because I could be wrong, or some other crazy thing could happen that might make the aggression return.  And if that happens, it will be easier if we already have the crates and they are used to them.