Reactive towards owners

[Timangie]

Not sure where to start really... Timmy has always been a handful (he's 18 months old now). Hyper, needed constant attention/play. Hates being left. Developed flybiting syndrome. We had him in daycare 4 afternoons a week so we got peace and could work. He loved it there and thrived. When the daycare changed hands that's when the trouble started. He became stressed and aggressive towards the staff and we had to take him out. The vet has put him on prozac and we've arranged a behaviourist for May. Now he seems to see us as a threat, getting his lead on is a nightmare. He will growl and bite us. He's always hated being groomed, again he would bite us, so we just don't groom him. It's like an on off switch, one minute he's curled up asleep on my knee, the next I can't get near him in fear of being bit. We can't have family round. The vet has said, it'll only get worse, and it may be kinder all round to end his life. She's worried he'll seriously hurt us and she thinks he's suffering. I can only think he has canine adhd, bipolar, autism etc. We love him but can't go on like this, it's all consuming and heartbreaking. 

[Dogcoat lady]

Oh, I am so, so sorry.  I had a similar male, an intact rescue.  I thought I could work through it.  One breeder said it was in her opinion, a crossed wire….

At that time, I tried everything, after easily a year, it did not work out. I wish I had better recommendations.

Dogs should bring us joy. Most do. 

[Hillscreek]

So sorry Timmy and you are having difficulties.

It's almost impossible to comment on your situation without more information e.g. why did his behavior change after day care change. Did you ask them? What did they say? What training methods have you used as he grew up?

It's important to remember Cairn Terriers are small dogs but they are naturally very active, highly intelligent and very independent.

My very general suggestions are:

Look through the many posts on this forum about tough times with young cairns. Lots of good advice.

Be sure the behaviorist you hire is knowledgeable regarding terriers in general and Cairn Terriers in particlular.

Talk with the breeder you bought him from.

Go to a dog show and talk with other Cairn Terrier owners.

Go to dog obedience class and start training again from the beginning.

Read The Complete Guide to Training Cairn Terriers by Vanessie Richie.  It probably won't give you a complete or easy answer but it may provide information regarding the history and nature of the breed and how best to relate to its needs.

If you are able to help Timmy and yourselves you will have the best little buddy a person could ever want.

Very best of luck. Let us know how you get along.

 

 

[bradl]

Really good advice above. 

Anyone who has had a troublesome terrier knows the pain of uncertainty, frustration, and doubt. We all want to have good relationships with our canine companions — I feel your pain and I'm sure many do. 

From afar it's always risky to speculate as to what Timmy's real deal is, so we can only relate our own experiences. 

We've had dogs who tested our patience but ended up the best companions possible.

We've also had a dog with whom the best we could manage was a sort of détente — on permanent low-key readiness to retract a hand literally 100% of time. Still we managed to get a modest obedience degree with him, and he lived for lure coursing (the non-sighthound version of it). Ninety-eight percent of life was normal with him. However a 2% failure rate might be too high for some families.  He was returned, rightfully and justifiably, from two placements as a young dog. Once we finally understood him better, we would not re-home him; we took him back and kept him for the remainder of his days until he died (to our heartbreak) of a bowel perforation at age 12. 

I'm glad you will be seeing a behaviorist and as Hillscreek notes it will be helpful if they are familiar with terriers.

Hoping that you find a path forward, whatever it may be. 

[Dogcoat lady]

It was very difficult to respond to Timangie post on many levels. In a hope that my outcome was not typical or desired, every dog is different, and there are many avenues of assistance.  Dogs teach us every day and I value my experiences with all dogs.  Sometimes, it is beyond us.  The coulda, woulda, shoulda will haunt me.  I was crushed, I couldn’t find his better way.

 

[pkcrossley]

It is very hard to imagine a vet recommending that an 18 month old dog be killed. You say of your dog's previous situation, he "loved it there and thrived." He reacted to a change over which he had no control (but probably, in cairn fashion, thought he could bully somebody into fixing). If your dog loved his previous situation and thrived, it may be so again. It would be a different situation if you had never seen your dog loving life and thriving. 

You certainly need a second professional opinion. Please be sure that anybody who gives you advice is very experienced with terriers, and if possible cairns, We often see comments from trainers or vets that don't seem to convey a sense of knowing what the special issues with terriers are.

 It seems that Timmy also needs a serious neurological workup. Fly-biting could be a stress reaction, but it can also reflect focal seizures that can have a whole range of causes, from temporary and developmental to something needing long-term support. 

Cairns are challenging dogs, and they do demand concentrated training through this period of their lives. At a minimum you seem to be in need of a second opinion, probably along with the neurologicla assessment. 

[Sam I Am]

I agree with members posts, especially PKs advice. Fly biting definitely needs to be looked into further. A fair number  of terriers if they feel they have  an upper hand by being threatening and being aggressive, will take full advantage of the situation  especially if they know you are afraid. A complete medical work up I think would be ideal to see if there is something going on and if that comes up with no answers an expert trainer that understands how Cairn terriers think and react would be of great help. 
Also one has to think what happened to Timmy that his behaviour changed when the ownership of the day care centre changed. Given he was what sounds like a normal active Cairn youngster to a tiny terrorist …was he mistreated because of his rambunctiousness? 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Sam I Am

[Timangie]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:03 PM, Dogcoat lady said:

Oh, I am so, so sorry.  I had a similar male, an intact rescue.  I thought I could work through it.  One breeder said it was in her opinion, a crossed wire….

At that time, I tried everything, after easily a year, it did not work out. I wish I had better recommendations.

Dogs should bring us joy. Most do. 

 

[Timangie]

Thankyou everyone for your help, advice and kind words. It means a lot. I'll let you know the outcome once we've met with the behaviourist. 

[Catalyzt]

Wow, thanks so much for sharing your story.  We live with a Cairn X who exhibited fly-snapping when we got him, which was at about one year old, and who bit me very badly in the face at about 18 months old.  He had a seizure shortly thereafter, and two seizures after that, though none recently.  

He still will bite under some circumstances (see my next post) though he has never bitten unpredictably-- as he did the first time, shortly before his seizure.  The fly snapping has decreased substantially, he does it very rarely now.  Other problem behaviors have decreased, too: Barks less at strangers or when startled, and when he does bark, it's much shorter duration, and he responds better to correction.

I'll be frank: I think it's  unconscionable that a vet would recommend putting a dog down for the symptoms you describe at 18 month.  It may be that he's not a good fit for your household, and that's not any criticism of you!  I certainly could not have handled a Cairn when I was younger and less experienced with canines, and when I had to work 60+ hours per week.  If he's not a good fit for you guys, I hope that a rescue would try to place him-- several times-- before considering euthanization.

I'll go further: I don't believe SSRIs should be used in an outpatient setting, and then only when every other option has been exhausted.  We really have no idea how they work; my 5ht2a receptors may do very different things than yours, and who knows what goes on in a Cairn's brain?  The side effects from these drugs are wildly unpredictable and are sometimes permanent.  I've only been practicing 12 years, and I've worked with maybe 100 people taking SSRIs.  I have only seen one successful outcome, in a client with TBI, and many have reported aggression or obsessional thoughts about weapons, or develop such extreme personality changes that they can't participate in psychotherapy.

I've seen so many reports of aggression or suicidality associated with these drugs.  It has a very specific signature, it's different from other types of aggression or self harm, and it's absolutely maddening to watch one client after another report the same or similar symptoms.   My most high-risk suicidal clients were on SSRIs, and many others have reported aggressive impulses or intrusive and obsessional thoughts-- particularly about knives, for some reason.  Another issue with people is that the sometimes, to stop the drugs safetly, they must be tapered very, very slowly-- like, over the course of 18 months.  No idea what that would look like in a dog.

I would never consider an SSRI for aggression in any species, particularly prozac, which tends to be more activating.