Marking

[Eliz222]

This is our first time having a male dog in our household. Atticus is now 8 months old and has been housebroken since almost 5 months old. He's doing great in that regard and holds his bladder for long periods of time and can tell us when he has to go outside, so we are good to go.

This topic doesn't really have to do with housebreaking, but it didn't fall under grooming either, so forgive me if I put this in the wrong section.

When Atticus is walking on our walks outside, he often stops and marks his "spot". These tend to be the same spots in the neighborhood, but we don't always walk the same route. We are working on walking without pulling, which he use to not do, but has started doing more and more. My question is should I let him pull off to the side to mark on a post/tree/bush, so should I make him continue to walk next to me? How do I know when it's ok to let him wander to the side to mark? Should I make a command that lets him know its ok to mark? I tried this a few times, but when we were at the post he was not interested in marking. I'm so confused, and I know he is too.

I read an article that said that you should only let your dog mark in their own yard and to prevent the dog from marking on their walks. What are your thoughts on this?

Atticus does not mark (knock on wood) inside our house, but the other day I took him to Petsmart and he marked inside the store! I was mortified and cleaned it up right away. I put him in a cart so I could shop, but when I was finished I took him out and he tried to do it again, but I caught him before he was able to pee.

 

BTW, Atticus has not been neutered, and won't be until he is over a year, unless it becomes a problem. Will the marking stop when he is neutered?

[Dogcoat lady]

“Will the marking stop when he is neutered? “

That is a tough question.  As all dogs are individuals…the answer is, too. I think terriers are especially bold and territorial, but that is my experience.

[bradl]

Agree — it's one of those "maybe, it depends" sort of things. Both Elroy and Dundee mark outside but (fingers crossed) not inside. On the other hand, Haggis wore belly bands indoors his whole life. The command "PANTS!" came to mean "Stop, freeze, and wait for your belly band to be put on."   

On the walking thing, we make a distinction between walking for the dog's benefit and walking with us on our missions.

I don't like to nag a dog into obedience when its not necessary, so on some walks sniffing and marking and generally nosing about is fully permitted. Other times we expect them to keep up, stay close, and no monkey business. Generally we don't use obedience commands on leisure walks (other than "wait" for stops and "easy" for sled dogs).  It is counterproductive to use commands you don't enforce with 100%, instant compliance, so we don't use them unless we plan to make it so. That means many walks would never make it past the end of the driveway. Sigh. 

I think where you live should be a factor in what's allowed on walks. It's not great PR to have a dog marking every ten feet in public. In those sorts of situations I might keep the dog on a tight enough leash, and moving at a fast enough pace, to stop them marking everywhere they want but look for community marking posts to let them dash off a quick Letter to the Editor from time to time in socially acceptable places (isolated lampposts, fire hydrants obviously , various other targets that present themselves as acceptable ).

[Hillscreek]

At eight moths old Atticus is a mature male. In my experience of terriers and retrievers male dogs want/need to leave their calling card wherever they can. I had the same trouble in stores when Angus was young even though neutered at just over six months. I resorted to have him wear a belly band in the store. (Pet Co and other places sell them both for male and females). He actually didn't mind. He saw it as a signal we were going into Tractor Supply which he loved and which was the only place he wore one. Once house trained he never marked inside at home. 

Re walks. As brad says it depends where one walks. Angus and I usually walked on the Game Lands where he was free to run and mark or not as he wished. In town I kept him walking along close to me asking for 'wait' at curbs but letting him sniff and mark now and then on lamposts etc 

 

[Dogcoat lady]

Love the “PANTS!” command.

[Eliz222]

Thanks for all the replies. He mainly marks on posts, and mostly marks in the same places. We start off on a leisurely walk so he can sniff around and mark on a few posts. After we get down the street I pick up the pace and we walk quickly. I wasn't sure if I should keep him at a quick pace and discourage him from marking when we are walking quickly. The posts he marks on are utility posts. He tries to go into private garden beds, that are close to the street, but I won't let him wander in them. I didn't know if I should start using a command word for letting him know it's ok to mark.

 

I love the "letter to the editor" comment....ha!

The only command I am using now is for walking close to me. Instead of using the word "heel", I use "walk". I don't know why, but that's the word that I have been using for having him walk beside me. I will sometimes have him practice "sit", since he does this very well inside the house, but when distracted it's a hit and miss.

Thankfully he doesn't mark inside the house!

[Kathryn]

Our guys know that if they walk in collars (usually with Steve but sometimes with me), it is an exercise and "obedience" walk, and there is no stopping to read peemail or respond. Walking in a harness, usually with me, they are allowed to snuffle, sniff and mark at random. In both cases, they are not allowed to scoop up sidewalk snacks...more a problem with Angus. This system works well for us.

Neither of these two mark in the house. We still use dog gates, though, and keep them in the kitchen when out of the house without them. This is more to keep them from barking at random things out the windows though. 

[Eliz222]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:38 PM, Kathryn said:

Our guys know that if they walk in collars (usually with Steve but sometimes with me), it is an exercise and "obedience" walk, and there is no stopping to read peemail or respond. Walking in a harness, usually with me, they are allowed to snuffle, sniff and mark at random. In both cases, they are not allowed to scoop up sidewalk snacks...more a problem with Angus. This system works well for us.

Neither of these two mark in the house. We still use dog gates, though, and keep them in the kitchen when out of the house without them. This is more to keep them from barking at random things out the windows though. 

Sounds like you found a solution that works for you! I'm looking forward to the day that we can leave Atticus out of his crate when we are not home. At 8 months old, we are not there yet.

[Max]

This is a question on marking indoors.  My son and his fiancee have a 5 year old Cairn.  Griffey was adopted by Erin as a puppy, and housebroken until about a year ago.  My son entered the picture about 18 months ago, and Griffey adores him, my son loves Griffey.  The inside marking is getting tedious and they have crated him, confined him to certain areas but nothing is helping.  Someone mentioned his marking may be an attempt to dominate his space, and Erin, when my son entered the picture.  That sounds reasonable, but Griffey spends his time with my son even when Erin is home.  They really do love each other.  Does anyone have some suggestions to help?  He comes to stay with me on occasion and as sweet as he is, he tries to mark at my home too.  I leash him and keep him by my side while indoors.  HELP

[Dogcoat lady]

I don’t know all there is about marking, but new/strange smells are often a trigger.  A belly band will keep everything a bit smoother, but it will not eliminate the issue.

[bradl]

22 minutes ago, Dogcoat lady said:

I don’t know all there is about marking, but new/strange smells are often a trigger.

Agree. New anything, sometimes!

Belly bands are part of the daily wardrobe in many households. They do not stop marking behavior, but they accommodate it and limit the damage. 

My guess is that once a dog has well-developed marking behavior indoors you are unlikely to stop marking indoors unless you are able to catch and interrupt it as, and preferably before, it happens — dozens if not hundreds of times, and without many (if any) misses in the streak. This requires a very high level of dedication and accuracy in monitoring the dogs location, body language, and thoughts. OK, at least two out of three of those. If you remember getting dizzy watching a puppy literally every second while trying to ensure you can snatch it outside before it potties — same deal.

Strangely, something that tilts the odds a bit is regular training in virtually any discipline that develops a dog who looks for (or accepts) direction rather than freelances.  I am an advocate of formal (competition-style) obedience. Not for any specific behavior learned, but for the toolbox of skills both handler and dog learn, and for the myriad side benefits of the relationship built. They spill over into all sorts of unexpected places in unexpected ways. 

[pkcrossley]

is there really a connection between marking outside and marking in the house? i don't see how a normal dog refrains from the activity of marking where another dog has marked (and even getting the inspiration to be the first to mark). it is so fundamental to the dog sensual world and to dog society. it sort of sounds like refusing to allow your kid to say his/her name in public. my female dog marks, even though it is not as showy as when the boy marks. it may not mean any more than liking a tweet. some dogs have been trained to pee on command, and apart from the fact that you have to have some kind of reserve in the tank, i wonder if dogs really equate peeing to expel urine and peeing to be social. 

on the other hand, if there is research showing that marking outside and marking inside (where there surely can't be the same cues) are basically the same thing, i would defer to science. but my basic sense of what dogs are doing there would resist.  

[Dogcoat lady]

Very valuable points, and terriers are much more prone to leave their calling card, unfortunately.  They are not the only ones….

[Hillscreek]

9 hours ago, pkcrossley said:

some dogs have been trained to pee on command, and apart from the fact that you have to have some kind of reserve in the tank, i wonder if dogs really equate peeing to expel urine and peeing to be social. 

I trained my dogs to pee poop on demand. I think there was a difference between that and going 'naturally'. Somehow they seemed to learn and understand that that emptying out to be comfortable was not the same as leaving a note for others to say they had passed by a certain spot.

When marking on our walks retrievers and terriers never seemed to ever have 'empty tanks'. Truly amazing - sometimes barely a drop but if a mark needed to be left it was. 

 

[CamilleatGaelforce]

This is a response to Max, the poster with the dog marking indoors.  When a 5 year old dog suddenly changes their bladder habits, my FIRST concern is always "do they have a bladder infection?"  A trip to the vet and urinalysis is absolutely in order.  Even at 5, depending on the environment the dog has lived in, an ultrasound to rule out a bladder tumor is not a bad idea, either.  (Certain lawn chemicals, for instance, have been shown to increase the risk for TCC.)  Only AFTER medical issues are ruled out do I turn to behavior modification to correct indoor urination.  My best advice for behavior modification is #1 install a doggie door to a fenced outdoor enclosure and #2 "umbilical cording" the dog to me so that they can't get away with a "sneaky pee" when I'm not looking.    Hope this helps, Max!

[Toto-lee Cairn]

On 2/24/2022 at 3:15 PM, Eliz222 said:

Sounds like you found a solution that works for you! I'm looking forward to the day that we can leave Atticus out of his crate when we are not home. At 8 months old, we are not there yet.

I don't view crates as necessarily a bad thing, and think that crates, along with wearing harnesses when out on walks, are helpful when it comes to keeping the dog safe.  When Toto is in his crate, he has special toys (relegated to the crate only) and a blanket he likes, and I often say, 'crate' when he is out-of-sorts like during a thunderstorm, or a fireworks display.  Going to the laundry room is generally 'time out' for misbehaving, but I don't use it to the point he wants to run or something if I say, 'Go.  Go to your room.'

The trainer who helped me with Toto in particular felt dogs 'earned' things, which I thought was a fair approach -- I mean my own child had to earn the 'extras.'  Toto was allowed more time out of his crate, out of the laundry room, not confined to mom's vision, as I could trust him.  He has earned the privilege, so to speak, to sit in the entrance hall, and observe the world as it passes.  On the unusual occasion he wants to throw a fit -- squirrel on the stoop, deer in the yard -- I tell him 'thanks, I'm on it' and follow it with 'OK, hush.'  Now, with a Cairn it may become 'Hush' x 5 and I am trying to re-direct him.  Problem children Cairns can be.

I think as a Cairn ages, and matures, that trust is built and they truly become the Best Little Pal in the World.  You also get a feel for what you can trust your pal with.  I am delighted that our last potty call before nite-nite in his crate, is more often than not, off-leash.  Just one last thing I have to do as we both totter off to bed.  If I do leash him, I give him credit for knowing 'something's up' -- yeah, I know.  We project onto our pals, and make assumptions.  I assume he gives me credit sometimes, just sometimes, for knowing a bit more and having his well-being at heart.

If your dog has little, or no, objection to his crate, I think that's a very good thing.