Dental Health

[sanford]

Has anyone heard of, or used the antibiotic, clindamycin/antirobe as a dental prophylaxis for their cairns? I'm told that a few drops, 3 times a week can entirely eliminate tartar on the teeth, and the need for any expensive dental cleanings ever again.

This antibiotic is available by prescription only, so obtaining it through one's vet might be difficult or impossible. Additionally, we are all cautioned about overuse of antibiotics, but the anesthesia required for dental work has an element of risk as well.

One vet quoted me $600.00 to clean Ruffy's teeth. The cynical part of me believes that vets might discourage endorsing "maintenance" doses of antibiotics in order to preserve this lucrative aspect of their practice, the cost of which is beyond the means of many folks.

If there could or would be a viable alternative, it would be nice to have that choice and I'm thinking of approaching my vet to ask about this.

[Hillscreek]

Have not used it or heard of anyone using it. I thought as an antibiotic it was used to treat infections rather than to prevent them.

Personally both for me and Angus I am reluctant to use any antibiotic used unless absolutely necessary. Too often antibiotics are prescribed and now some bacteria are becoming resistant to treatment.

$600.00 seems a lot for a cleaning. But no doubt some of it may be according to where you live. I live in a generally poor rural area and few  people would be able or willing to pay such a high price for dental work. Angus's vets charge for basic cleaning is $196.00 and for x-ray to check on gums and bones $100.00. If work has to be done beyond the basics then that is charged in addition to the $196.00.

Angus is scheduled for both at the end of Feb. He will be nearly five and a half at that time. He has some tartar build up. He's never had any dental exam before so I thought it a good idea to have them do a general look around.

 

[_whits_]

Addie's dental in the DC metro area in Feb was $840 (pet insurance paid for most of it). That included blood work, x-rays, anesthesia, and cleaning, and an antibiotic. Did not include any extractions. It was the most expensive dental I've ever encountered.

I'm not speaking for my dad, but he's a veterinarian who grew up in a poor, rural neighborhood. He was a farm veterinarian for years until he opened his small animal practice in a suburban area of Colorado. His veterinary philosophy is never to charge more than is necessary for his practice to stay profitable enough to pay his staff and make a living.

If there was a miraculous non-invasive and budget way of cleaning teeth, I can guarantee you my dad would use it. Even if he wanted to be nefarious and keep it a secret from his clients, he and the many other vets in my life would be using it on their pets. It doesn't exist.

Even for humans, the only way to maintain teeth is daily brushing and yearly dentist visits for professional cleanings. My dad scales my dog's teeth semi-regularly (also known as an anesthesia-free dental) but it still doesn't take the place of a full dental under anesthesia, because it can't get to the tartar under the gum line. 

There are water additives that are supposed to help prevent tartar buildup, but my dad has stopped stocking it because it has xylitol in it (http://www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/c.e.t.-aquadent-drinking-water-additive). The dose required for daily use supposedly isn't dangerous, but if I dog were to somehow get more than the recommended dose, it could be deadly and there is no treatment to cure the poisoning. The website claims the xylitol isn't deadly to dogs, but my dad refuses to sell it. Water additives are considered less helpful for tartar buildup than daily brushing. Neither take the place of professional cleanings.

My only suggestion for saving money would be to wait until February, because that's pet dental health month in the veterinary community and most veterinarians offer 10-20% off if you schedule a cleaning that month. I'd also look into pet insurance with wellness plans. For example, I pay a little extra for Addie's Embrace pet insurance every month and in return the insurance pays up to $600 per year for non-emergency care (which is how I afforded Addie's dental earlier this year). 

[sanford]

My apologies to _whits_ re my statement that vets might be trying to preserve lucrative aspects of their practice at the patients' expense. I admit to being seduced by too many conspiracy theories floating around these days and I'm sorry to have offended her and her dad!

I certainly agree with whits that $840 is a lot of $$$ and appreciate her recommendation to wait until Feb Dental Health Month for a possible 10-20% discount. (Every little bit helps)! It's too bad that this fact is not better known. I'll also look into the insurance she mentioned.

After all is said and done, I probably would not opt for ongoing doses of an antibiotic, even if it was available. It just sounds too risky. (I raised the topic to find out if others had knowledge of this method and clearly, nobody does so I'll let it go). I'll also check the water additive I've been using. There is no mention of xylitol on the ingredients list, but I will be contacting the manufacturer to ask about it.

For many years I had been brushing the teeth of my family's Golden Retriever and Chow. It was a cinch because they had such large mouths, you could practically get your fist in there and it was so easy to thoroughly brush their large teeth as these obedient dogs patiently sat until the task was done. But we all know that cairns are a different story. 1) They are low to the ground, 2) Their mouths are small and narrow... maneuvering the brush inside is a hit-or-miss situatiion. 3) My first cairn never permitted me to even go near his mouth. Ruffy lets me, but he doesn't like it and we end up moving around the room. For my efforts and contortions, we are only getting mixed results. (This goes for finger brushes, gauze swabs, etc., as well).

[Sam I Am]

Ok I am going to way into the conversation, although I know some people won't agree, but we take Rosie to a company, who does work out of a holistic vet clinic in Vancouver. Rosie is 4yrs old and so far her teeth are in great shape. We have her teeth scaled every 6 months by a company that comes to Alberta on a regular basis. They do anesthetic free cleaning. I know there are a lot of "bad" companies that do this, but as this lot have been trained by the practice in Vancouver, and actually have their home base there, I totally trust them. My own vet sees Rosie a couple of times a year and says she has lovely teeth, especially for a small dog.  We also brush her teeth every day. To do this, I sit down on the floor, flip Rosie on her back, in between my legs, turn her head to one side pull her lips back gently and brush one side, then the other. I can reach all the way to the back ones this way. The company that does her cleaning has a video on how to do this. If anyone is interested to see how it's done email me and I will forward their web site.

 

[_whits_]

Oh Sanford, I wasn't offended at all. I just wanted to give you an (somehwhat) insider's perspective on it. Because you're right, there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there!

I think if xylitol was in your water additive, I think it would have to be listed in the ingredients. I mentioned the virbac one because it's what veterinarians typically stock since most virbac products are endorsed by a group of veterinary dental health researchers. 

And I think the anasthesia-free cleanings are great maintenance, but I've never seen one that gets under the gums. Addie actually did great with my dad's scaling only for almost 5 years.

Unfortunately now her mouth is a tartar and plaque festival and she'll be getting annual dentals. I think a lot has to do with genes, as my Maltese had to lose most of her teeth by age 7 and Addie has a full set of healthy ones and I didn't approach their care all that differently. 

Addie does not get regular brushing because she is a monster about it. She is totally fine with anyone touching her mouth or sticking their fingers in there UNTIL she knows it's for tooth brushing reasons and then she kicks and flails and squirms and closes her mouth like it's Fort Knox. I've never been able to hold her down long enough in any position to get all of her teeth. 

[pkcrossley]

the dental thing, what a headache. the cleanings are extremely expensive, yes, but the concern for me has always been the anesthesia. even if everything goes right (it always does), the wear and tear over a lifetime on the kidneys and liver is not nice to think about. teeth are important and tooth infections are a very serious health issue. but i often feel like, my dogs are better with teeth, but even better with kidneys. 

individual dogs develop tartar and bacteria at different rates, and i'm willing to assume that there really are dogs who need their teeth cleaned annually (more frequently i'm not willing to be as credible). i have never heard that an antibiotic would keep the teeth clear but i guess it makes sense in a way. on the other hand overuse of antibiotics is another one of those things ranks with kidneys and livers. it seems impossible to know the right thing to do. on principle i put anesthesia very high on the list of things to avoid whenever possible. i allow my pets to anesthetized only when there is no alternative at all. optional dental surgery doesn't qualify, even though it can happen, i know, that dental surgery can really be an emergency.

i use the citrus-based anti-tartar supplements (there are several brands) in the water of my dogs and cats, and i'm pleased that they always get high marks for dental health (they also eat high-premium kibble, no human food at all very infrequent wet food). my oldest cat, now 12, was told at her last wellness exam that "sometime" maybe "next year" she might be recommended for a dental cleaning. that would be one in her lifetime (if it really turns out to be indicated). we can probably tolerate that. 

if i had a dog who was a tartar-generating monster and was in danger of whole-body inflammation or in constant pain from bad teeth, i would consider it a medical emergency and have anesthetization. fortunately i have never been in that situation (through a dozen pet lives) and have been able too use the solutions, some tooth brushing, and annual inspections to avoid the whole dental cleaning drama. that doesn't mean that i don't get a lot of pretty casual and clearly routine suggestions. 

[hheldorfer]

1 hour ago, _whits_ said:

She is totally fine with anyone touching her mouth or sticking their fingers in there UNTIL she knows it's for tooth brushing reasons and then she kicks and flails and squirms and closes her mouth like it's Fort Knox. I've never been able to hold her down long enough in any position to get all of her teeth. 

I know exactly what you mean.  Not to go completely  but it's interesting that Buffy will allow the vet to poke around in her mouth, yet it is off limits to me and DH.  She has one other rule, mouth-wise:  I am the only one who can give her a pill by shoving it in her mouth as far as it will go, forcing her to swallow it.  DH won't even attempt that maneuver.  

[_whits_]

46 minutes ago, hheldorfer said:

I know exactly what you mean.  Not to go completely  but it's interesting that Buffy will allow the vet to poke around in her mouth, yet it is off limits to me and DH.  She has one other rule, mouth-wise:  I am the only one who can give her a pill by shoving it in her mouth as far as it will go, forcing her to swallow it.  DH won't even attempt that maneuver.  

What was SO WEIRD for me to witness was Addie with her Grandpa. She is completely 100%  okay with Grandpa sticking his hands in her mouth and poking and prodding her anywhere as long as it is at his veterinary hospital. She's a perfect little patient. At his house she will not allow any veterinary procedures. She will kick and flail and chomp to get him away. 

[LucyG]

I use Plaque Off and have very good results 

[MegsMom]

Something you might want to consider is using a herbal tartar softener, I've used it for years on "good" and "bad" teeth/mouths and all I can say is it helps. It's also used by people. It is Not a substitute for regular dentals and dental care, but it may extend the length of time between dentals.  What it does is soften the tartar/plaque build up so it scrapes off easier, (so I'm told by vets/techs) shortening the time under anesthesia--and I consider that a win.  

Col Potter Cairn Rescue has it available on it's site (has had for years) https://www.cairnrescue.com/one-30x-strength-fragaria-vesca-dental-plaque-aid-pets-and-humans/      They are tiny little round pellets.  Come w/ instructions for handling/dose/use.

It's a mountain strawberry plant extract, so far haven't found any dog have trouble with it. Two ways to use it, *1* drop a couple (depending on size of dog) of pellets in the food bowl once a day, most dogs like it so you can also just drop the pellets on the floor; or *2* dissolve some pellets in the water bowl daily. 

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

I just ordered some of the strawberry plant extract...started Pepper on it a couple of days ago.