HELP! Very aggressive Cairn

[beverett_32]

My cairn Schroeder has become very aggressive the last month and I need any help I can get! Schroeder is almost 6 months old ad he was fixed two weeks ago. We got him from a breeder when he was nine weeks old. He was the sweetest puppy when we first got him but lately that is not the case. We made sure to never hit him to correct him or anything along those lines.

Schroeder has been biting the last couple months and it is getting unbearable. He does not nip, it is definitely a bite. He doesn't just bite once either, he barks and charges at me and my fiance and tries to bite us. He continues to bite multiple times until he finally stops. He does this when we try to put him in his crate, when we try to pick him up,and when we try to move him, and even once when getting his ball while playing fetch. He has bit me at least 15 times on the hand, arm, leg, chest, stomach, etc..

We have realized that some of his problem is resource guarding so we stepped up the obedience training to show him we give him his food. We handfed him for the last 3 weeks but nothing changed. He is a very smart dog and picks up commands very fast but once he does a command like "leave it" he gets his treat and goes right back doing what he was told to "leave it." He does this over and over again but I can't pick him up, or correct him because I am tired of being bitten. We have brought a trainer to our house that showed us a few new commands to help and he is in obedience class but nothing has changed.

I need help because i am worried about the day when he bites friends and family, and the day when he decides that he isn't going to let up with the biting and someone will get seriously hurt. Any advice on what I could do differently and what I am doing wrong would be greatly appreciated!! Sorry for the lengthy post

[Tuesday]

Schroeder is only 6 months old - still a very immature age for a Cairn. There may be some teething issues, some finding his place in the pack issues, and some boredom issues.

It's kind of hard to pin point. When specifically does he "bite" you?

You need to wear these dogs out - mentally AND physically. They are hard to wear down, and at times you may be inclined to give up and give in. Be vigilant. Play hard with the dog. Teach the dog - I found great success in clicker training. One of the first commands we gave the boy was "kennel". Then we progressed from there.

Believe me, so many of us understand your frustration right now, and have been in your place.

[DemiSheep]

Are the bites breaking the skin? I would put him in a submissive posture when he gets aggressive - lay him on his side and he him till he relents. If his biting prevents you from doing this get a pair of oven mots and grab him that way and hold him down.

(null)

[Ivy & Lucy's Mom]

We do understand your frustration-training is not immediate. I have had my issues with Ivy. It seems that as they age and training, things get better. I agree with Tuesday and Demisheep. I would definitely roll him on his side and hold him there. Sometimes, it really takes awhile but he needs to learn to be submissive. I also had a trainer tell me to squirt Ivy with water when she becomes uncontrollable on walks (when she sees other dogs, she can become crazy like). It does seem to work. I can't say whether that would work in your situation but it may be worth a try. I use a spray bottle and she hates it. It calms her immediately. It will get better-six months is young and these dogs are so headstrong. Good luck-let us know what works..

[beverett_32]

Schroeder charges and bites any time I try to make him do something he does no want to do. So far it was happen when I tried to pick him up, put his leash on him, take a toy to play fetch with, move him from destroying a puppy pad, and when trying to put him in his cage. I have been taking him for at least an hour walk everyday that really tires him out but it is still happening. He knows the cage command and will go to it from across the house if he hears it; but if I don't give him a whole baby carrot before closing the door to distract him he tries to run out of the cage and bite me.

When Schroeder bites his bites always break the skin and he bites multiple places at one time. I've been using an oven mitt to close his cage door so he can't bite him when I do that but he still manages to bite through it even though it is a very thick oven mitt. I've tried turning him on his side/back but it never worked for him and I only got bit more from it.

[pkcrossley]

getting bitten by a terrier, particularly young, fast and with fairly new teeth, hurts like the devil. as somebody not being bitten daily or weekly by your dog, it is pretty easy for me to say that he is going through a pretty predictable stage, as he matures. many terriers go through this more than once, and spoiled terriers linger in this phase for all their lives. successfullly getting through this stage of maturation demands a comprehensive, absolutely consistent response from you. if you are effective, you can get schroeder on the right path and end up with civilized pet.

if you check out the site you will find a full library of stories, strategies and responses that correspond to your situation. there are many possible approaches, depending on your lifestyle but much more on what works with your pet. some pets respond to several different approaches, some pets respond to only one and it may take a while to find it. basically, you are looking for a way to comprehensively put the rule of law to all your little dog's actions. resource guarding is typical of a dog who has decided that with a bit of meanness and a willingness to punish people, he can have everything and rule the world. this is not an attitude that any terrier can sustain for long without becoming miserable himself an a misery to others.

whatever approach you choose, i would recommend that first you work on your fear of the dog. you must protect yourself from further bites, not because they would do you permanent harm physically but because they will condition you to flinch from or back off from your dog. you must lose all fear of your dog. in my case, i had a bitey, "aggressive" juvenile, and i kept him in a harness and short leash all the time. at the first hint of trouble i went up in the air and then to whatever time out place i had for him. in his case he quickly discovered that his antics were useless and that he was only earning himself isolation without gaining anything he wanted. no fuss no muss. i also had the kinds of gloves you use with a woodstove so that i could pick him up when i wanted. being picked up is something these dogs hate; they feel helpless and trivial, and are unable to prevent their space being violated. you need to protect yourself from being punished by a bite when you have to violate your dog's space. there are several ways to do it. use them, and stop being bitten. this is where your brain should give you an advantage over your dog.

once you are insulated from further damage or developing further fears of the dog, work on making your dog civilized in all things. no food guarding, no toy guarding, no jumping on people, no rushing at the door, no barking for no reason, etc. you will have to control the food in a very obvious way, and make clear that all good things come from you. there are many approaches, but all rely upon either a very disciplined, careful application of physical force, or perhaps no force but use of social rejection and so on. please remember that any undisciplined use of force will only make the situation much worse, as your dog will decide that the biggest bully wins. you want to reform your dog without increasing his insecurities or exciting his resentment, or making him fearful of you. many people find that a good professional training course is effective (i would recommend changing your position with schroeder first a bit, to get a real benefit). it depends on what you are good at and what your dog responds to. you need to make a systematic investigation of the techniques that will work, and then apply them so consistently that your dog will never be left to wonder whether, or hope that, he can get around you and win.

remember that you have to work not only on schroeder but also on yourself. you have to be cool, calm and collected no matter how much schroeder has frustrated or alarmed you. these dogs are like spoiled children, and once they think they can push your buttons they think they can control you. do not cry, scream, or yell when you are out of control. you want calm, easy, effective responses, and schroeder must clearly know that this action brings that response. lose your fear, and lose your hopelessness. you will win through and bring schroeder an excellent life if you work on yourself as you are working on him.

so far schroeder is showing the impulses of all cairns, but is behaving like one who has not had enough indication that he cannot, in fact, rule the world. you need to completely eradicate his hopes of ruling the world, and replace them with hopes of being a trusted, valued, good-living member of the household.

Edited August 21, 2012 by pkcrossley

[Hillscreek]

so far schroeder is showing the impulses of all cairns, but is behaving like one who has not had enough indication that he cannot, in fact, rule the world. you need to completely eradicate his hopes of ruling the world, and replace them with hopes of being a trusted, valued, good-living member of the household.

Agree. Cairns want to rule you and they will if you let them. The biggest thing I found with Angus was that the more excited he got the calmer I needed to be! If you are angry schroeder will be angry right back. Practice being calm and firm.

He must learn NILF. There are lots of examples in the forum about how to deal with biting cairns. Many, many of us go through this. All cairns want

to be the boss.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Hillscreek

[hheldorfer]

Not much to add to the discussion but welcome to the forum! Folks here have seen it all and done it all with their Cairns and there's no better place to get advice on this subject.

PK's suggestions are excellent. Another option for protecting your hands is a good, heavy leather pair of gardening gloves - the kind that also cover your wrists and lower arms.

[Macdaddy]

Our little Mac was neutered in mid July. We definately noticed a difference in his personality in the three weeks following. He became more possesive of things, ie; chew toy's, and bully sticks etc. He'd give a low growl and nip/bite if you went near his mouth or tried to take it away. He began barking at people and growling at them for no reason. At first we thought he was being protective, but when it became a regular thing, we knew something was amiss. Our sweet little puppy started to become not sweet at all and sometimes a bit nasty. He was really pushing the envelope. Thankfully, we found an excellent trainer who worked with us for a few hours at home. Then she took him two days in a row to her academy. After us working with her, and all three of us working with him, he's making progress. Not in leaps and bounds, but noticible progress.He's less aggressive and it's coming through firm commands and instruction with rewards for expected behavior. We've started to make daily trips to the dog park as a way of exhausting our little guy.

It's nice to know all Cairn owners(parents as we refer to ourselves) go through these growing pains. When they are sweet, there is a tremendous feeling of pride and love. When that other dog came out, it was a feeling of "what did we get ourselves into" ?

It's getting better now

[EmmettsMom]

I feel so much better that I am not alone. My little Emmett just turned 8 months old and we go through an "aggressive period" every night. It seems to be around 8:00 and he will bite my hands, wrists and arms. We play outside and go for walk nightly. i dont know what else to do to tire him out. I have been holding him down with his harness so he cannot reach me to bite me. But when I think he is calmed down I let him up and comes back for more. I will try to be more calm and avoid the anxiety i feel, which I am sure he can sense. Thanks everybody!

Kris & Emmett

[beverett_32]

I've tried the NILF concept with Schroeder for the last month and things have only gotten worse. I feel like I've tried everything; long walks, NILF, lots of obedience training, handfeeding, professional trainers... I feel like I am out options. It wouldn't worry me as much if it were just regular biting; but this is multiple bites, almost like an attack. He charges at me and bites repeatedly especially when I try to hold my ground. I am at my wits end!

[Lynn in TN]

Pk was right on, as I had a little Jaws myself. Some of the best advise is Keep you cool. These little dogs are great at picking up on your feelings, and emotions. I used a stern growling voice with Kelly. It took a while till about 7 months old but she is as sweet as a peach for now. haha You also have to be consistent. Don't ever let him get by with anything. If you give a Cairn an inch thy will take a mile. haha Keep a sense of humor. It will serve you well.

[Macdaddy]

pk, I really appreciate your well thought out response and advice.

[pkcrossley]

from what you write, it sounds like you are trying all the right things. but overall it looks like schroeder doesn't believe you for some reason --he still thinks he is going to terrorize you and run things. i know it is hard to try to sort of get way up above and see the big picture, but i guess if you want to solve this you will have to. my question would be: you know the things that are best to do, and you are probably applying them at the right time. why aren't they working?

commonly, failures at this point seem to revolve around consistency. are you a multi-person household? is it possible that somebody in the household is giving schroeder mixed signals, probably by accident? if there is any possibility, make sure that everybody gets together and understands how important it is that you be a unified wall that schroeder cannot pass. NILIF is essential, even if you have been doing it and it has not produced results. every dog needs this, especially terriers. review your NILIF practices, and see if there are loopholes that schroeder is exploiting. and do be sure to protect yourself form further bites, either with a harness and leash or gloves (from your description, i almost feel that the harness and short leash approach is essential). your description gives the impression that schroeder believes he is in charge, or will soon be in charge. that suggests that he does not believe that you do not fear him.

when the trainer came to your house, did he or she say nothing at all that showed any insight into the situation?

Edited August 21, 2012 by pkcrossley

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

The first thing my vet told me when I mentioned that I was taking Pepper for a walk daily was that "walking is NOT enough" - that dog needs to chase balls, ect. They need running and jumping! Anyhow - we now walk daily to the dog park where she runs her little heart out. She does NOT want to come home, but does let me get the leash back on her. The first month or so, we left the 6' leash on her so anyone at the dog park could grab her when it was time to go. It really helps her behavior - if she doesn't get worn out she is a pest to EVERYONE!!!

[Idaho Cairns]

I am less methodical and more direct in this matter. I start from the premise that no dog should bite for any reason and proceed with that basic understanding. I out weigh my Cairns by upwards of ten to fifteen times, am stronger, louder, and more determined. The only method that has worked for me (actually the only one I have employed) is loudly making sure the dog understood that his behavior is unacceptable when it is unacceptable--my "bark" is almost as bad as my bite.

Get yourself some heavy duty rough leather "railroad" gloves with heavy cuffs--buy them big so they are easy to get into quickly and the next time the dog bites or attempts to bite, grasp him by his little snout, look him in the eye, firmly and loudly say "NO!". If he resists and he will, go right back at him, put him on his side with both hands, hold him there repeating the "NO!" command. Leave him in that position until he relaxes and he will eventually relax and you can see and feel it. These dogs are not dictionary prone, you don't need a whole bunch of commands when one will do to cover the entire range of behaviors you don't want--barking, chewing, going potty in the wrong place, being on furniture, bothering humans, or biting--"NO!" is a universal "Stop that crap now!" command.

I would imagine that you wouldn't have to repeat this process more that two or three times before you little guy figures out who is in control in this situation. Any dog will use snarling, growling, teeth display, and actual biting to defend itself and assert itself but you don't need to worry about why the dog is doing it--it doesn't matter, if it is wrong you must correct it, quickly and firmly. Once you gain the dog's acceptance of your role in the house you are done forever--it is a quick fix.

I say all of this not really knowing the actual circumstances you are experiencing--it may be more serious or less serious than what I have experienced with my dogs but I know that you are dealing with an animal that has been domesticated for centuries and an animal that very rarely has "mental problems"--a lot of these animals, however, are owned by humans who allow themselves to be intimidated, convince themselves that "reasoning" with the animal will work, and who end up exacerbating their relationship with the animal because of it.

You simply need to be more demanding and assertive with the dog for just a bit and then you can start enjoying your Cairn in the way they should be enjoyed--as happy, dependable, safe, and disciplined pets.

[hheldorfer]

Pepper's Mom has a good point. Maybe Schroeder could benefit from more exercise and socialization. Do you have a dog park in the area? I'm not saying this would be a magic cure, but worth a try. I've seen cocky little dogs trot into the dog park acting like they own the world; their attitude changes after the pack puts them in their place. Sometimes it takes another dog to teach a dog, and it works best when the dogs are allowed off-leash. The downside to this plan is that you'd have to be super-vigilant to make sure Schroeder doesn't bite anyone at the park. Putting him in a sturdy harness and having a leash at the ready would be necessary.

Dogs' exercise needs can vary quite a bit. Schroeder may be fine with a 1-hour walk when he's 2-3 years old but it may not be enough for him now, which would only add to his frustration/aggression.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Tessie's Mom]

Welcome. You have come to the right place to get good solid advice from people who know the breed. I am a newbe myself and learn something every day. I don't have much to add but I echo pk in the more consistant I am with Tessie the better result we get. We live in a household for 5 adults so you can trust she does not get consistancy all the time. We have melt downs, nipping, chewing inappropriate things, (mostly books) and ignoring commands everyday, but every day we have sucesses too. The more exersice she gets the better training sessions we have.

Hang in there, there is lots of support on this forum.

[Ivy & Lucy's Mom]

One last thought I had after reading everyone's comments. Is the trainer you had well adapt at understanding cairn terriers and their temperament?? I hired a wonderful woman for Ivy. After three very expensive rounds of training with no improvement in her aggressive behavior, I quit. She took a very soft approach to Ivy which did absolutely NOTHING.

It was a complete waste of money. I have actually been doing some of the recommendations from this forum and they have worked. Don't give up on him. Ask your vet for some recommendations on a trainer who may know a cairn's temperament. Hope this helps.

[Macdaddy]

Idaho, love your approach !!!

[beverett_32]

I can understand why he thinks he might be in charge because it is hard to stand there while he bites me a few times. I will admit that in the past I have backed up but I have tried to stop that lately. I have a westie about the same age as Schroeder so when I keep him on a leash they get tangled in it and start using it for tug of war. There probably is some variation in training because my girlfriend is absolutely scared to death of him and does anything she can to not try to provoke him. Lately Schroeder's walks have been as long he can stand and you can tell he is very tired when we're done but that won't keep him from biting if he wants to. My trainer gave me commands to get him to do what I want like leaving things alone and getting off the couch but once he gets his treat he goes right back to it.

[pkcrossley]

i agree totally with idaho, you don't need to worry about a lot of commands until you have success with "no!" --total success, no matter the circumstances.

at this stage, letting anybody who is intimidated by schroeder into his presence is a real threat to everything you are trying to accomplish. people who are afraid of dogs, or afraid of certain dogs, can't really help it. ask your girlfriend to avoid schroeder for a couple of week while you work on adjusting his attitude. once he is tamed a bit, she should not find it so worrisome to be with him and the damage will be less. try to have as much control as you can for a week or two, and see if you can create an environment for him in which nobody at all is intimidated by him, and he is forced to respond to "no." if you can master idaho's method, that would be great. if not, schroeder may be like the majority of cairns and respond to social shunning. spend some time finding out what works, and then use it with absolute consistency.

your goal: schroeder must believe that you cannot be intimidated or bossed around. he must understand that the only productive use of his time is charming you, the source of all good things.

if you need inspiration, watch 'the miracle worker.' you are annie sullivan.

just one more thought (we are going to criticize everything down to the color of your underwear i guess): what

s with the treats? treats are for teaching dogs tricks. you are just teaching your dog "no." the reward is: he pleases you and you like him. you get off his case. i don't think a dog with a report card like schroeder's needs treats right now. just saying. i think that to him a treat means either protection money or a reward for not doing some trivial thing that he probably thinks is a joke. i would say: hold off on the treats until you get to where it is worth teaching him to sit pretty or dance with a hula hoop or something.

Edited August 22, 2012 by pkcrossley

[Hillscreek]

I've been reading this thread over as I was so concerned - his behavior seemed so extreme for a young cairn and I did begin to think that someone was afraid of him.

Agree with above. Schroeder knows your girl friend is afraid and this encourages him to think he can be boss.

Agree with Idaho Cairns also just let him learn 'NO'. The biting must be stopped. Get the gloves and go to work. My pup Angus is 11 months and in his biting time I just used NO fiercely. I'm not strong enough to hold him down. I could hold him round his muzzle,yelp to let him know he hurt me and say NO forcefully.

In addition he responded to shunning as like cairns in general he loves to be involved in what's going on.

I was not afraid of him and so he quickly learned he couldn't boss me.

Try putting Schroeder in a safe place by himself for a while.- not his crate. In a hallway, in an xpen out of sight. Somewhere where he can cool off. Take him right back there if he starts the same thing again.

Whatever method you use it will seem not to work at first and indeed things may seem to get worse but if you keep at it he will begin to learn his life can be a better happier one

Let your girl friend stay away for a while as pkcrossley advises. Then go to work and get him sorted. It may take a while and you must be consistent and repeat over and over and over whatever method you find works. One of them will work as long as you yourself are determined and not afraid.

PS send us a picture. We love pictures of our cairns and we love our cairns and we wish you all the best.

[JohnS33]

Oh Boy- sounds like my little Ricky was during his early years- I used to go to work with scars on my hands and arms - I was very discouraged and came to these boards for advice and ... It will get better!

Ricky's biting and intimidating and constant annoying....a thing of the past now that he is 16months. One of the best techniques I was taught was to use "time outs" --- pick him up (use the gloves if necessary!) and attach him to a short tether in an adjacent room. for 2-3 minutes. We had one of these thethers tied to a fixed object and ready to attach on each floor of the house. Also laying him on his side until he submits. Keep working at it. Like Schrodeder, Ricky could learn all sorts of tricks for rewards- and that is a sign he can concentrate and learn behaviors- a key sign he will be ok if you can get your message across. I confess that I had a behaviorist come over one day since I couldnt stand it - and she validated what I heard on these boards. When I told her that I had owned 3 cairns before Ricky and he was abosultely the worst she said " I think he may turn out to be absolutely the best cairn you've ever owned"-- and I think now she may be right!

[Dempsy's Mom]

Good luck. Lots of good advice. I think if you don't show fear, get some leather gloves, old coat, strong commands, stay consistent ,he will eventually get out of this mode. I hope so. He is still very young. Hang in there.