Letting off some steam

[Malcolm's Dad]

I was talking with a friend about the pitbulls in the park. Said I think those are fighting dogs. He said maybe they are family dogs. I went off on him for 10 mins about how those are not family dogs. He said "Whoa chill, it was only a suggestion."

I did the same thing to Dempsy's Mom. I read her reply in my last post and jumped to a conclusion she was telling me not to judge people. I'm sorry about that Dempsy's Mom.

I'm angry at the world and taking it out on everybody. Malcolm got shouted at because he didn't come in instantly when I called him.

Here is some background. This happened 5 blocks (1/2 mile) from my house.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6204509http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6204509

There was a yard with a pair of pitbulls near this location. The pitbulls were having litters. After this seizure there were no longer dogs in that yard.

We had gang problems in the park too. The police got the gangs out of the park. Didn't see pitbulls in the park much after that. It was a pleasant place like a park should be.

Now we are seeing pitbulls in the park again. The neighbor behind me was robbed in his garage. A man was robbed 2 blocks away. Seems to me the dog fighters are back and the gangs are back.

I reported the man with the 10 lb. weight hung around his pitbulls neck. Haven't seen him in the park anymore. You can report animal abuse. There is no law against walking your dog. Still I'm suspicious of those pitbulls. I may be jumping to conclusions. This is frustrating.

A lady walks a Shih Tzu. She told me there is a house down from her with 2 aggressive pitbulls. She won't walk by that house. She is worried they will jump the fence and go after her Shih Tzu. We've seen a lady that carries a golf club in the park. She must be worried too.

Malcolm hasn't been to the park in a month. That pitbull with the weight worried me so we stayed home. Then it got too hot. Now the weather is very nice I'd like to take him to the park. Malcolm is good at provoking the other dogs. He wasn't with me when I saw that pitbull. I walk to the store through the park there are times he stays home. You know how strong a little 15 lb. Cairn is. A pitbull is 50 or 60 lbs. of that same incredible strength. I don't want a confrontation. There is pepper spray and better yet wasp spray. If I have to carry that I'd rather just stay at home and avoid any problems.

Malcolm is maturing into a fun little dog. He listens to me in the house. He wants to play all the time he's a neat companion. He even did stay the other day. I'm so proud of him. The problem in training was trying to get his attention. He was a hyperactive scatterbrained maniac. I could not get his attention. If there is such a thing as an autistic dog that would be Malcolm. No way to get through. Dog training techniques that work with any other dog failed on Malcolm. Now he is calming down in the house. I can get his attention. Outside is a different story. I may be able to work with him in the park and would like to try. Instead we stay home. I sit here and stew and steam.

Thanks for listening to my troubles. It helps to let off some steam. Better than getting so damn angry.

[Jack]

Sorry to hear of your situation! We live near Charlotte, NC and do our best to never go into the city, for the same reasons that you state. We live in a fairly rural area on five acres. Recently new neighbors moved in with a free range pit bull, I didn't trust the dog from the start. She's had two litters as fast as possible, very defensive of the pups. We took to only walking our two on leash, they were still charged by the pit. On top of that we had the law called on us for telling them to keep their dogs on their property in no uncertain terms! Needless to say we have embarked on a large fence building project. In the meantime, the neighbor has put up pens and brought in roosters, no hens, just roosters...go figure. In the meantime we have access to 700 undeveloped acres nearby where Jack & Belle can run off leash and we continue the fence project. I sort of understand your position - its hard to work on sits and stays outside with roosters crowing and a pit bull mom with pups wandering around.

By the way, I like the the new avatar, Malcolm is a handsome guy.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Jack

[Dempsy's Mom]

That's ok. I didn't even know I got told off. I am sorry about your neighborhood and the pitbull situation. Malcolm sounds like such a little sweetheart. So happy you have him.

[pkcrossley]

malcolm's world seems more complicated than most. you have a well-informed anxiety about many things in the neighborhood, perhaps the pit bulls above all. he picks up on your anxieties but doesn't understand them, and so perceives the outdoors as a hostile place where he has to be on the offensive all the time. he wants to drive off or eat up whatever he thinks is the source of your concerns --so far as he can see it is a danger to you and to him. he doesn't understand that in some ways he is making it worse and increasing your anxieties, because he doesn't know he is a tiny little fellow who is in danger of biting off more than he can chew.

i admire malcolm's attitude but i am aware that it is exactly the attitude that makes terriers in general and cairns in particular attractive targets for dog thieves looking for good bait for "training" murder dogs. their big hearts make them want to fight to protect themselves and to protect their homes and loved ones.

i don't know the answer, but i do know that the cairn tendency to think they are responsible for handling everything and that they have to think up a solution (that often involves trying to frighten or intimate somebody or other) for every problem is probably driving malcolm to try to "solve" the problem of your worries about the environment. cairns pick up on human feelings in an almost unbelievable way, and he listens to how you feel, not what you say or what you tell him to do. if there is some way you can send messages to malcolm of calmness and confidence, it might lessen the unpredictable factors that he unintentionally introduces. i know you can't ignore the dangers or un-learn what you know about the neighborhood. but it seems to me that malcolm is reacting the best way he knows to your feelings about the dangers on the "outside." in any event, he is probably happy to spend his time with you, whether it is inside or outside, at the park or not. and he is surely most happy being with you when you feel that he and you are safe.

[Lynn in TN]

Scott I can completely understand your situation. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have always been very popular in our area. Most of the time for protection and are family dogs. They can be really great dogs when treated like they should be. The ones used for fighting on the other hand are very scary and can't ever be trusted around children or other animals, and their masters are even worse. By myself I am more at ease around large animals, when my children and Kelly are with me it's a completely different story. I am a very small female and I'm not sure that I can protect them so I carry a baseball bat with me. It makes me feel more at ease. In my area we have to worry about bears and others too.

The bad thing about it though, I carry a baseball bat more so because of bad humans than I do animals.

I really hate it that you are having a hard time in your area and I hope that things get better.

@Jack the only people I have ever known that just had roosters were fighting them. That is a very popular past time for some very undesirable people in our area. It is very cruel to the roosters as normally it is a fight to the death, and I have heard they do some pretty awful things to keep the roosters on their feet fighting. I have also heard it is a lot more gruesome than dog fights. Such a shame in either case.

[Malcolm's Dad]

PK you are amazing.

I had a problem dog before. It took a little effort and some time. It was pretty easy to turn him around. Then along comes Malcolm. I never did so much research on dog behavior. Never scratched my head so much, completely befuddled.

You understand these dogs better than anyone or anything I've read. Yes, dogs do mirror human emotions. I am tense in the park. Mostly because I am dealing with a hyper dog that won't listen. Worrying about the neighborhood doesn't help much.

It didn't occur to me he could pick up on that. Dogs know when we are happy or sad or angry. You have a good point. He must be picking up more than that. He is picking up apprehension. I'm very apprehensive about him going after people and other dogs. Seems we have a vicious circle going here. He feeds off my apprehension which makes me more apprehensive of him.

Thank you so much. This will help next time at the park.

[hheldorfer]

Within months of joining this forum I became convinced that PK is the Cairn Whisperer. She's surely a treasured resource for all of us.

Before Buffy, I had a terrier/chihuahua mix who was very aggressive toward other dogs. She was extremely protective of her home, yard and humans and, on walks, she'd snarl and bark if she saw another dog. We worked on it and she got better as she got older, but I was "on alert" every time we headed out for a walk. This carried over to Buffy and she picked up on my apprehension when we'd encounter another dog. It was as if my emotions were traveling down the leash into her brain. I've had to train myself to remain calm and keep my alpha attitude when we encounter another dog and this has helped considerably.

They know way more than they let on, my friend!

Edited July 13, 2012 by hheldorfer

[Newman]

All Pitbulls owners need to stop breeding them now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

Over 80% are by pitbulls. Imagine dieing from a dog? you gotta be kidding me. This right here is shear fact that pitbulls should be extinct. Sickening animals and they are not dogs. A dog is a cairn terrier. Not some crazy demon that likes to attack and kill humans. Get them out of this world right now!

This is exactly why I will be carrying a small pocket knife with me on walks so I can protect my dog fonzy and myself from a vicious attack from one these demon infested animals.

[Dempsy's Mom]

Hmmm. Those statics are crazy unbelievable.

[pkcrossley]

people used to carry a good hickory walking stick when they went out. since the second world war it isn't common like it was, but it sounds like malcolm might feel a bit more secure if scott had something like that, even if only for looks. a knife doesn't sound smart to me, too easy for a mistake or somebody taking it away, and besides it doesn't do the job because nobody can see it. and a ball bat carried by a man might look aggressive to people who are as concerned as scott is, but a good walking stick is always handy for driving off unwanted dogs. i think malcolm would find it reassuring if his dad looks armed. and really, it is a walking stick, so nobody else needs to feel threatened. and it actually can help with walking. a good sports store will have some pretty impressive looking walking sticks.

[Hillscreek]

Dogs catch your inflections and your emotions - whatever they are. They also tell by your smell which can change according to your emotional state.

I think a knife or sprays etc could get one into trouble with the authorities.

I use what was called a hiking staff when I bought it. This helps me on my country walks and sporting goods stores round here sell all kinds like PKCrossley says.

Not much of an aggressive dog problem in this area fortunately so I'm not the best person to advise. I'd be terrified and no doubt would not take my dog out as often as I do. Angus's first response to something he's afraid of or anxious about is to growl and bark. This could easily be misunderstood.

[Lynn in TN]

I wouldn't ever carry a knife in a park where there are humans that could take it away from me and then use it on me.

The walking stick is a great idea for a man as it doesn't look as intimidating. I use a walking stick when I go to Bays Mountain Park as it helps to navigate on the rough mountain pathways. It also helps with snakes. The baseball bat serves me well when my children are with me in other parks as no one in their right mind would feel threatened by the sight of a small female with 2 boys that have a baseball bat. Both makes me more comfortable and it seems it makes a big difference with Kelly. PK is dead on with her comments. Every dog we have ever had would pick up on our moods and feelings, but with my little Cairn I believe more so than any other we have ever had. She reads us like a book.

@ Newman I am sorry you feel that way about Pitbulls as they are amazing dogs to have. I grew up with both kinds. Very sweet dogs a lot like our Cairns and then the demons. The demons in every case I have seen had owners that kept them chained or caged and beat them, let their children do to them what ever they wanted to ( pick at them, pull their tails, hit them and so forth), Or they used them for fighting. These owners should never be aloud to have any animal in there care. These same owners if they had any other dog would have the same result. The dogs would be more like demons. If I was going to adopt a Pitbull I would only go through a breeder that I have known for many years. They can really be awesome dogs.

[Newman]

Hmmm. Those statics are crazy unbelievable.

These are very believable.... I know It's hard to imagine but it's the truth.

http://www.dogsbite....dog-attacks.php ( most are from pitbulls , not all )

@ Newman I am sorry you feel that way about Pitbulls as they are amazing dogs to have. I grew up with both kinds. Very sweet dogs a lot like our Cairns and then the demons. The demons in every case I have seen had owners that kept them chained or caged and beat them, let their children do to them what ever they wanted to ( pick at them, pull their tails, hit them and so forth), Or they used them for fighting. These owners should never be aloud to have any animal in there care. These same owners if they had any other dog would have the same result. The dogs would be more like demons. If I was going to adopt a Pitbull I would only go through a breeder that I have known for many years. They can really be awesome dogs.

I know I have a insane view of pitbulls, but I just cannot put off the fact that they can kill a human being. The fact that a animal kills a human makes me have 0 respect for that breed of dog. Most of the time you're right, it is the owners fault because of abuse. But you have to know that these dogs can snap at anytime and at anyone. You have to remember they are still "dogs" that are huge and are deadily.

Seriously, just google "pitbull fatal dog attacks" if you do not believe me, these animals are deadly and need to be stopped.

http://blog.dogsbite...fica-woman.html

Read this......... If you do not believe that story, it's actually a real official one, it's posted here:

http://www.sfgate.co...ath-2335099.php

The pregnant Pacifica woman who was attacked by her pet pit bull bled to death, police said Monday.

Darla Napora, 32, died of blood loss and shock, according to a preliminary investigation by the San Mateo County coroner's office.

Napora's husband found her unconscious when he returned from work to their home on Reina del Mar at about noon Thursday. The dog stood over his wife's body before he dragged the animal to another part of the home, police said.

A unborn baby too......... :cry: :cry: :cry: these are just one of a plethora of other related deaths which you can watch by viewing my other links I have given above.

This needs to stop now.

This is just 1 out of thousands..............

Edited July 14, 2012 by Newman

[bradl]

I may move this to Dog Park eventually. It seems to be drifting in that direction. (That's not a problem, just an observation.)

Here are some stats about what's been killing us lately, and the probabilities thereof.

Source

: National Safety Council estimates based on data from National Center for Health Statistics–Mortality Data for 2008 as compiled from data provided by the 57 vital statistics jurisdictions through the Vital Statistics Cooperative Program. Population and life expectancy data are from the U.S. Census Bureau. --

http://www.nsc.org/N...ry_Facts_37.pdf

Apparently, despite my best efforts to be a good citizen, if these trends hold, I may be more likely to be legally executed than killed by a dog (pit or otherwise). On the plus side, as a retired motorcycle rider I'm somewhat surprised to be able to gloat that as bad as those odds were, being a pedestrian is WORSE (barely). On the phobia side, I remain justifiably terrified by the existence of wasps and hornets.

[hheldorfer]

I think we're hyper-aware of the dangers of large, uncontrolled dogs because we, as Cairn owners, know our dogs are prime targets for them.

Most of the time I believe the fault in dog attacks lies with the owner, not the dog. A dog owner is responsible for training and controlling their dog, a responsibility that is exponentially greater when the dog is large and capable of causing significant harm. A friend of my neighbor has a pit and he brought the dog to a party next door. The dog was an angel, very good with the kids at the party and generally as well-behaved as any other dog under the circumstances. I noticed that the owner was a "super-alpha: with the dog and took control every time the dog got a little too rambunctious. That's how you have to be with these dogs and it's a lot of work. Unfortunately, most of the gang-bangers and other types who own pitbulls because of their reputation as a tough, killer dog don't adequately train their dogs or take precautions to prevent injury to others. And the people who fight dogs are the lowest form of life.

Our local county animal shelter is full of pits, rotts, and other large dogs who have either been abandoned or seized due to abuse/dog fighting. They don't allow anyone to adopt these dogs and the dogs, unfortunately, are euthanized. This is a problem that humans have created and it's not the fault of the dog, regardless of the breed.

[Hillscreek]

I thought of adopting a dog from our shelter but almost all of them were pitbulls or pitbull crosses. This is a quiet rural area where there is no dog fighting as far as I know. They are just 'fashionable' like rotties. A while back it was GS and Dobies.

Unfortunately dog fighting is not likely to die out.

As several people have noted it is the owners' responsibility to train the dog he/she owns irrespective of breed. Even a small cairn can upset and frighten people if it is lunging and barking and yipping at people which we know they all can do unless we stop them.

[pkcrossley]

the statistics are fascinating. i am a bit surprised that one is three times as likely to die after being bitten or "struck" buy a dog than to die in a flood. i suppose the answer is that while flood events are newsworthy and the deaths always seem spectacular, dog incidents happen on a small basis and rarely make the news.

i agree with all hheldor's comments. the insight that we cairn owners are particularly wary of dog dangers because our little dogs have a certain talent for attracting trouble (not necessarily due to anything they have done) sounds totally right to me.

[SARpartner]

Here is a link for the CDC regarding dog bites and fatalities. http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Dog-Bites/dogbite-factsheet.html

Be careful about pushing for breed specific bans. One of the unintended consequences can be fueling the black market for those banned breeds. How to you pick one breed to ban? Will your breed be next? If they have teeth, they can bite.

I have trained many breeds for SAR, including pits and rotties. The behavior of the dog has a lot to do with socialization and the owner. The owner doesn't have to be agressive to create a biter. Because a dog picks up on the handler's emotional responses (ie. fear, nerviousness, anxiety, etc) an anxious person can just as easily create a biter. Yes, larger dogs can easily cause more damage than a smaller dog. Even a small dog could cause a death. All it takes is one bite that hits an artery.

I love my Cairns but I know if they are push far enough the can and will bite. I would hate to have a ban on Cairns because that incident scared someone who did not know the breed.

Not trying to preach, just asking for a bit of thought and civility.

[sanford]

our little dogs have a certain talent for attracting trouble

pk — Now you tell me! All this time I thought this talent belonged to Ruffy alone! (Forgive this personal note of comic relief on a very serious topic, but for the past year I really thought that Ruffy was the only "trouble magnet" in the cairn world!). I honestly never understood that he was merely being a cairn!

At last I can stop obsessing about this and move on to obsessing about some of Ruffy's other "talents!"

[Lynn in TN]

I may move this to Dog Park eventually. It seems to be drifting in that direction. (That's not a problem, just an observation.)

Here are some stats about what's been killing us lately, and the probabilities thereof.

Source

: National Safety Council estimates based on data from National Center for Health Statistics–Mortality Data for 2008 as compiled from data provided by the 57 vital statistics jurisdictions through the Vital Statistics Cooperative Program. Population and life expectancy data are from the U.S. Census Bureau. --

http://www.nsc.org/N...ry_Facts_37.pdf

Apparently, despite my best efforts to be a good citizen, if these trends hold, I may be more likely to be legally executed than killed by a dog (pit or otherwise). On the plus side, as a retired motorcycle rider I'm somewhat surprised to be able to gloat that as bad as those odds were, being a pedestrian is WORSE (barely). On the phobia side, I remain justifiably terrified by the existence of wasps and hornets.

Thank you Brad I love you for this one! I am going to show this to my Mother who has always been afraid of big dogs. I use to tell her that i would rather meet a Rottweiler, Pit bull, or any other vicious dog in a dark ally than a human any day. She use to say I was crazy. I am glad to see I am not.

I will say that I am shocked to see intentional self harm above assault by firearm. So if we are to be afraid of anything it should be ourselves. But i also notice Assault by firearm was way above bitten or struck by dog. Assault by firearm 1 in 321 compared to bitten or struck by dog 1 in 144,899.

I have always had a love for dogs of all breeds I was raised around pits, rotty's, dobermans, german shepherds, and great dane's, labs, different hounds, I will have to say that Cairns are my favorite with all the dogs I listed above tying for 2nd.

[SARpartner]

I really thought that Ruffy was the only "trouble magnet" in the cairn world!). I honestly never understood that he was merely being a cairn!

Sanford, Thanks for the wonderful laugh. Ruffy has lots of company!

[Idaho Cairns]

This from the CDC in the above referenced article:"A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998 ). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic."

That is pure nonsense and simply more of the gobbley gook thinking and reporting that the fatally Political Corrected CDC has reported in so many other instances in recent years. I get sick of them putting out studies that obviously point to a culprit and then backing away from drawing any meaningful conclusions.

The "study" they report clearly shows a perponderance of Pit Bull and Pit Bull mixes in fatal dog bite instances and even if these deadly encounters are rare, those of us with experiences with Pit Bulls know the problem is not only with the dog but with the kinds of people that seek, raise, and harbor these dogs. While there are perfectly legitimate owners of Pits in America, mature, intelligent, well meaning owners we also know that for everyone one of them there are ten owners or more that should not possess these dogs. I get sorely tired of the attitude that "we shouldn't make the dogs pay for the bad owners" when we do absolutely nothing to restrict who can and cannot own these potentially dangerous dogs. Because there is both a racial and socio-economic component to who most likely owns and harbors these dogs, those who should act fail to do so because they don't want to "offend" those groups, thus nothing is done.

I am not against Pit Bulls and other "vicious" breeds but I am against the political correct blinders that are worn when we discuss what society should do about protecting themselves from irresponsible owners of these breeds. These dogs are more often than not being used as status symbols for all the wrong reasons by all the wrong people and we need to recognize that right out of the chute before we defend owning one of these breeds.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Idaho Cairns

[pkcrossley]

fabulous point --there are not only breeds of dogs but breeds of people who are attracted to the dog's supposed qualities, and then instill those qualities to reflect their own. mean guys buy pit bulls and make them mean. maybe we should experiment with laws like big men with bald heads, goat beards and voluminous tattoos can only own shih-tzus, and dogs over forty pounds with huge jaws can only be owned by little old ladies with electric scooters. let's see how many murder shih-tzus it takes to terrorize a medium-sized dog park.

[Idaho Cairns]

Well, it would sure making walking thru Wal Mart parking lots easier if all you had to be concerned about was some fluff ball lunging at you from a bed of a pick up!

[Lynn in TN]

Ok I am feeling guilty for laughing so hard as it really isn't a laughing matter, but you all reminded me that a few years ago Mom and I went to Walmart and I parked beside of a truck that had a Pit, Rotty, and Doberman in the back of it. Those are the three dogs my Mom is most afraid of. Well they are wagging their tails and whining wanting to be petted and I just walk over too them and started to pet and hug on them while my Mom is telling me what a lunatic I am and I just looked at her and said it's not the big dogs you have to worry about around here it's the little poof balls and Chihuahuas, so we are walking by this car that has its windows down and this Pomeranian and Chihuahua (I bet they didn't weigh more than 4 pounds a piece) started lunging and barking and growling, i bet my Mom jumped 3 foot in the air it startled her so bad and I just started laughing and said I told you little poof ball and chihuahuas is what you have to worry about. ( I was Joking as I believe any dog can be a threat no specific breed ,but it was so funny that these little teeny dogs acted so fierce after the big dogs were so sweet and gentle)