New Cairn Mom -- Need Help!!

[hannahkesh]

Hi everyone!

I'm a proud new mom to Carl, my now 4 month old Cairn. I've been having a lot of difficulties with house training.

 

I adopted him at 2 months from a breeder. They had a farm so he could eliminate pretty much wherever. I've been working to take him out first thing in the morning before work, once I get home and again every 1-3 hours until bed.

I know that this can be a difficult breed to train as my mum has a Cairn. The problem is that he's still having accidents in the house. I'll let him outside, stand around for quite some time and he won't eliminate. As soon as we come inside he'll pee. 

Another issue is that he'll make the signs that he has to go pee, but before I can jump to him he'll have an accident. 

He also seems to lack the ability to hold his bladder when he gets too excited or happy in general. He'll pee all over himself or on whoever is holding him.

My vet said that he's supposed to be house broken by now. I'm starting to feel like a bad Cairn mom. I don't know what to do or what I'm missing. I'm starting to wonder if there's a potential bladder issue or if I'm not doing something properly.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Or if anyone knows of a Cairn trainer in the Metro-Deteoit, MI area I would also appreciate it too!!

[Idaho Cairns]

Welcome!  Your concern with housebreaking is not uncommon with Cairn pups.  It has been discussed several times here and once quite recently.  Rather than reiterate all the good advice here, it might be more valuable for you to review those threads, there is a ton of good advice on this topic.
Excited peeing is not unusual at all, until they mature a bit, many dogs have this "problem" and it does pass with age.  Our current Cairn who is twelve, had a bad run with this when we brought her into the home as a pup--so predictable that we didn't dare speak warmly to her in the house, or even pet her, we had to take her outside to be able to show any affection at all--it was quite frustrating but she grew out of it pretty quickly. 
Have faith, this "problem" is common and it does go away with time.  Get yourself some really good cleaner that removes urine scent from the scene of the crime, clean up carefully and that doesn't allow the dog a "favorite place" to go inside the home, make that outside area his favorite--a place where his scent lingers.  Over time that will become the preferred spot.

[hheldorfer]

Welcome to the forum!  I agree with Idaho Cairns - check out the many "housebreaking" topics under the Behavior and Health section of the forum.  Lots of good information there.

You mentioned you take Carl out but do you take him for walks?  At four months he probably shouldn't take long walks but it wouldn't hurt to walk him a short distance, maybe just around the block or up and down the street.  Dogs are stimulated by scents and will pee and poo to cover the scent of other dogs (and just about anything else), so a short walk in the morning and evening may help.  

We'd love to see a pic of Carl!

[sanford]

Love the name!?

Re your vet saying "he's supposed to be housebroken by now..."  No disrespect to your vet, but a one-size-fits-all approach for our pups, (or for our human babies as well), may not be valid here. Additionally many vets have never seen or worked with cairns, a breed unlike others.

Among other suggestions ... Crating, using an X-pen and/or temporarily using a dog-walker during the day, (if practical and affordable for you) might be additional options you'll find in "Behavior and Health".

Edited October 2, 2016 by sanford

[Hillscreek]

Welcome Carl and family. Agree with above. Look around the Behavior and Health forum topics and you will find plenty of housebreaking info. Some cairns are housebroken early some not - there's nor rule for this (like anything else cairn). Some do the peeing thing and some not.

My Angus was very slow to be completely reliable in the house - I think about five months and he also did the excitable/submissive pee thing till about two years old. The only thing I could do was to be patient, take him out often, praise when he did something. Also like Sanford mentions I kept him confined in a closed area near me or actually sometimes when small attached to me by a leash/line. Cleaned up accident immediately. I did not scold him for what he could not help. I put a belly band on him when we went in to a store. Put on just before we went in and took off as soon as we were outside again.

Longing for pic of yet another cute cairn pup

[Kathryn]

Just one more suggestion -- is Carl food-motivated? My Oban will do almost anything for food, and loves the treat he gets after he does his "job." He actually finishes, and then looks right up at me for the reward...

[pkcrossley]

yes, classic problem, lots of solutions (not to say all will work --you need to find the approach of combination that works for carl. very important, to quote sanford: 

3 hours ago, sanford said:

No disrespect to your vet, but a one-size-fits-all approach for our pups, (or for our human babies as well), may not be valid here. Additionally many vets have never seen or worked with cairns, a breed unlike others.

i don't know your vet, but most vets truly have very little experience with intense terriers like cairns and a lot of anguish can be caused by judgments based on experience with labs or beagles or poodles. cairn behavior and training are a bit different, as are expectations. but you know that since you've had a cairn in the family. 

good dog carl!

[Ms Molly Mae]

I know to well the problem with taking the puppy only to have him pee as soon as you come back in. My Molly still does that sometimes if she had gotten to excited or distracted. She is only 10 months old so there is still time. We started off last winter with a pee pad. She will use it we are not paying attention to let her out or when she comes back in and still have to go. We are still working on her learning to bark if she wants to go out. So far it only works with going out to chase squirrels.

To get her used to the idea of peeing outside instead of inside, we just let her spend as much time as possible outside.  And we used a lot of treats and praise. It also took a little while for her to be able to hold her bladder for long. 

Just have patience with Carl, he'll get it.

[hannahkesh]

Happy Monday Everybody!

Goodness, I'm so happy to see all of your responses! I read through other threads where fur-parents have had difficulties with their Cairns & housebreaking but I wanted to double check to see if there was anything that I was missing or if he was a unique situation. 

Totally understand everything about the vet. I know that these little guys are not common for most and it's been difficult finding a vet who has experience with them. I've been doing a lot of research and I know that they are/can be one of the hardest breeds to house train. It's still difficult knowing that there will be a challenge with Carl, but being chastised by the vet sent me into a bit of a fuss that I'm not taking proper care of him. 

Sometimes we will go for a walk but he's since he's more of a runner (surprise surprise) he likes to join me for a quick jog. He'll stop when he wants to but he's never eliminated on a walk -- he's very good in the sense that if he's outside he will only go in his designated 'spots' and no where else.

17 hours ago, Ms Molly Mae said:

We are still working on her learning to bark if she wants to go out. So far it only works with going out to chase squirrels.

Ms Molly Mae (love love love your name, btw!) how have you been working with Molly to get her to bark when she wants to go out? This is something that I would love to learn how to teach Carl.

Thank you again everyone for all of your responses! You all have helped to make me feel so much better about my little boy! Here's some photos of Carl. The first one is the most recent of us at the vet. The middle is from about a month ago and the one on the right is of him sleeping. He's quite the snuggle puppy and is fairly calm for a Cairn. 

 

 

[hheldorfer]

Love the pics of Carl.  

[sanford]

Handsome guy!?

[Autumn & Lola]

Welcome to you and Carl. He is just precious!   I've never had a puppy, so no advice to offer, but just wanted to welcome you.

[Hillscreek]

Adorable Carl - we luv ya!

One thing about teaching bark, ring bell etc when pup wants out. Angus did start to learn to ring bell but after a bit I realized he was just ringing the bell so we would go outside  and play or walk or whatever - not necessarily because he wanted to go potty. So I had to give up on that and go back to taking him out as I thought he needed it. As he was able to go on longer walks he started to eliminate in a typical fashion and rarely needed to go out when at home. Now he is grown up if there is an emergency he goes to the door and gives the tiniest little whimper. Whimper is so soft I barely can hear it.

Carl will be fine. One thing we cairn owners learn is patience. My retrievers were house broken by around three to four months. My terriers including Angus took almost twice that time.

 

[_whits_]

Welcome to the forum Carl and family! He's so cute I just want to squish and kiss his face.

I don't have much to contribute, other than the method I used to housebreak my Addie (see below attached thread). I had the benefit of being home 24/7 for Addie's first weeks so it made housebreaking easier. I still maintain I didn't potty train her, she potty trained me. She used to go to the door and quietly growl to let me know she needed out, now (age 5) she has control of her bladder and my mind enough that she just assumes I'll know through telepathy it's time to go out. 

Addie and I would like to add that your vet is a poopy butthead (a favorite term in our family) for telling you that Carl is "supposed" be potty trained by now. I hope along with his judgmental words he also checked Carl for bladder issues (UTI, etc). Also boys tend to have more issues controlling elimination until they are neutered. 

Perhaps with puppy distractibility it would be useful for you to clearly delineate walks/runs from potty breaks? Also, I know nothing about it because you will only get me to run in emergencies, but I believe there is some worry about having young pups run too much while their bones are still developing. 

 

[LindaMC]

Hello  Hannahkesh and Carl and welcome to CairnTalk!   Carl is so stinking cute, he's giving me the puppy bug for sure.

 Please do not be discouraged by Carl's accidents, I went through the same thing with Maisie, who we adopted at the age of 4 months.  We didn't think she was ever going to learn to go outside and also peed whenever she got excited.  Just follow the advice given from all the uprights on this forum and give him time, he will grow out of it, he just needs to be shown the way.  

Looking forward to reading all about Carl's adventures.

[Rylee's mama]

HI!  I was having almost the same exact potting training issues with Rylee.  Just keep at it, it will get better.  Rylee still has accidents here and there but he is much improving! 

Off topic....I know we aren't supposed to mention breeders, but our pups look VERY similar and mine came from a farm also.  They are also the exact same age.  Yours wouldn't happen to be from Florida, would he?  It would be awesome if by chance they were brothers:)

[Ms Molly Mae]

Awww, Carl is such a cutie!!! He looks so calm.

Now I am convinced Molly Mae must have ADHD. Molly sits at the window all day looking for squirrels. When she spots one she goes crazy barking, before I will open the door I try to get her to sit and then bark. If she is in the other room and barks without cause, I will take her out. It doesn't work to well unless I can get everyone else to do the same thing. She makes no sounds when has to go, but starts to search around or head straight to the pee pad. So I have to keep an eye on her mostly at night. We also crate her when we are away and if we need her to calm down. If she does have accident, we crate her to get her out of the way and let her know she can not get attention by peeing on the rug. It has been almost 2 weeks since she had an accident (I don't count the pee pad.)  

If Carl has a favorite spot(s) to go outside, then that is half the battle. Make sure you walk him to that area during known potty times and after walks before going back inside. He is still young. Cairns can be smart but stubborn. 

[Dempsy's Mom]

He is going to be so much fun!  Love Carl!  Welcome to the forum. 

 

[MegsMom]

On 10/3/2016 at 7:52 AM, hannahkesh said:

It's still difficult knowing that there will be a challenge with Carl, but being chastised by the vet sent me into a bit of a fuss that I'm not taking proper care of him. 

First.. Welcome!

Perhaps grabbing a book on terriers will remind you of their 'different' mentality, as well as offer you reassurance that not everyone does understand terrier mentality (as implied by the vet's comment).  You may also gain insight on how your vet is dispensing behavioral comments about terriers and where/when to take that to heart.  {Really vets get Very little animal behavioral training in vet school, but knowledge in bodily functions & problems is emphasized & what we owners really need of vets.}  They're just not jack-of-all-trades and sometimes understanding their limitations makes for a better partnership.

Two easy books I like, that describe well, the terrier personality are:  When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion and Terrier-centric Training by Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell.   As ebooks they're less than $10 (I get dog books on dogwise.com as Amazon gets some of my $$ otherwise---I believe in "spreading it around") and may just be cheap reassurance that you're on the right track and possibly help remind you of how terriers think when you encounter a "maybe/maybe not" issue.

[FYI: I choose .pdf format on most books so a specific reader program isn't required.  Just simple Adobe will open a .pdf format and means the book/document can be moved to any device with Adobe, rather than having to re-download, which might be years later.]

[hheldorfer]

I second MegsMom's comments about vets not always having extensive knowledge of every breed.  Buffy's original vet (we switched vets because we got tired of waiting 2 hours for an appointment) didn't particularly care for Cairn terriers and thought they were all snappish.  It took a long time before he realized she was a fairly well-behaved little dog, despite her overall 'take no prisoners' attitude.  

In my opinion, your vet chastising you regarding Carl's potty training was unwarranted.  Perhaps he hasn't had much experience with terriers and doesn't realize that a saintly amount of determination and patience is sometimes needed to steer them in the right direction.  

[Donna Crume]

Hello - Hello - Hello

Stopped by due to the title, and thought, here I am?  My little girl will be 10 yrs the first of the year and has not gone in the house since she was just under 1.  Now, with that being said, I am with her 24/7 and that made a difference.  She would have excitement oopsies in her crate up until about 9 mos old.  She did not have free range of the house until she was about 2.  Now that one is on mom, as mom wanted to be sure she would not leave me any dividends.  She was tethered to me, or in the same room with me at all times, free-tethered-crated.  Don't under estimate the value of your crate.  Great tool, and what it is there for.  When you take him out on a leash, do not let him do anything until he has done his manly duties.  Walks, jogs, squirrel chasing are the rewards for doing it.  Mine have come up with the bell to go out.  Due to ages now, they just sit at the door, or when she really has to go out she will grab the bell and shake the dickens out of it, but still no in house messes.  Yes, they realized they got to go out if they rang the bell, but this is where as the mom and a far superior (???) being know this and will correct and say no.  Do not forget pee bands can also be used in the house.  Have a 9 mo old Scottie also, he had a inside pee band (home made, mom sews) for the first 2, almost 3 mos he came into the house, I got him at just under 3 mos.  I found the diapers that go with the store bought pee bands were expensive, so new born diapers with all of the side/top trim cut off and then cut in 1/2 work really good.  Any brand will do on this and a lot cheaper.  He has never, and I sincerely mean never messed his crate.  Now, the bugger will wake me in the middle of the night to go out and watch?  (ain't nothin' there that I can see!!!)  Depending upon the time he last went out before turning in is the judge if the predawn forays are real or not.  Remember each one of our children are different as are the parents.  What works for some might not for you, what does for you others might scratch their head at.  And one vet for all most assuredly does not fit all.  Find one that talks to you like you have something between the ears and not just dead air, one that encourages, and will return calls if needed, even if it is just the staff.

Love on mom and Carl, the best is just coming up on the horizon!            

[lindasue]

I would be shocked if Carl was housebroken by now. This breed is stubborn. Took our Pegi about 6 long months and several carpets to be trained. I can only add that we use the word "sniff" when we take her out.  Cairns are smart and didn't take long for her to get it.  Was same word my dad trained all our dogs. Also would take her to same place to do her business, and give  her a small treat when we came in. Pegi is now 7 and hasn't had an accident in years. 

Good luck and he's a cutie!

[Corn Niblet]

Hi, welcome! Carl is adorable!  My Rocky is 1 year and 2 months old now. I remember him getting the hang of going outside at around 5 months.  He now will bark to be let out. Our vet said the same thing, and I felt so bad that it was our fault and we were doing something wrong. Hang in there, everyone told me he would get it and he did!

[luvcairns2]

Hello!

Carl is adorable!!!

I've had really good luck training my 4 Cairns. It's important not to let them roam free in the house if you can't watch them every minute until they're potty trained. If I wasn't able to watch him then I would put him in the exercise pen (placed where we are not off alone someplace). I only had to confine my guys for about 4-6 weeks. I still watched him closely for another few weeks but he didn't have to be confined and no accidents.

 I took him outside ( 1st thing in morning, right after each meal, and after play time to potty--several times a day. I gave the command "DO IT" and waited... once he pottied I would say "good do it" big smile lots of praise and give a special treat.

I also taught "do it more" for #2... Once he pooped I would say "GOOD MORE" or "good do it more". I know it might sound weird but I hate to carry a poop bag when walking or training. If after 10-15 minutes and he still hasn't gone pee/poop he should go back in xpen or crate (i used xpen). Wait another 10-15 minutes and take him back outside and try again. It's important to be consistent with the time you feed, time you take him out and walk him. They thrive on a routine and quickly learn. This may sound like a lot of work and it is but I've found they learn quickly and don't develop bad habits.

Never use a crate or xpen as discipline. Like if he chewed your shoe that's not his fault it's yours for not watching him or not putting your shoes away LOL... Always associate it with positive behavior.. I've been known to sit in the xpen with my puppy for the additional 10/15 minute wait and playing before he goes out the second time.

If you google Blair Hill Crate Training my boy Juniors breeder has some great information about training these amazing dogs... That's my two Cairns in the crates without doors...

I didn't read all the posts so I hope this isn't a repeat..

Best of luck with your Carl. It only gets better. 

Best dogs ever!!!

Kind Regards, sandy

 

 

[luvcairns2]

http://cairnterriersofblairhill.com/training 

This might be a better link..More information on house training.

Happy training....