Cairns vs. Westies

[Mick]

Hey all, our Cairn Nellie is now 2 1/2 and we love her a bunch, the most interesting entertaining dog I've owned. We have a couple friends that own Westies. I know they are related to Cairn's and they seem to have the same personality traits. Just wondering if they are essentially a Cairn in a white coat or if there are noted differences (especially in temperament / personality) between the two?

Thanks!

[pkcrossley]

hi mick there are a number of threads here on this subject, which is a very interesting one. it depends on what you think are important differences and what you think are trivial. everybody agrees that the breeds are very closely related, the history and the genetics shows that well. the question is, what would your criteria be for considering them the same breed? they are recognized by breeding authorities as two different breeds, and a westie sire and westie dam will always produce a westie. the question is, are the breeds close enough that a cairn sire and cairn dam can produce a westie? the rule of cairns is they can be accepted as cairns only if they are a color other than white (white means truly pigmentless in the hair shaft, if doesn't mean a color that looks white even if pigment is present). the rule exists, i would argue, because cairns can be born westies (which genetics says must be true), in which case they cannot be registered as cairns (i don't know whether a true white cairn can be registered as a westie today, though that is clearly how the breed arose originally).

once two breeding populations are artificially separated, whether by a high fence or by a a set of stud books, other differences in temperament, disease vulnerability, size, and so on will develop. given how long westies and cairns have been separated, i am surprised that there are still so few differences between them (if white cairns are allowed to be registered as westies, that would explain how the two groups continue to be so very similar). i compare them to the differences between shih-tzus and lhasa apsos. those breeds have been separated only since about about 1930, but i think the differences between them are pretty obvious, though it is nothing to do with color. in the case of westies and cairns, i see only a color difference. they have the same autosomal dominant profiles (including disease vulnerabilities), the same temperaments, the same conformation and the pretty much the same size. so, to me, they are two artificially separated breeding populations of the same dog. but that is not the opinion of the AKC, obviously.

[rodeosweetheart]

I have wondered this, too, as we had two Westies before getting our new Cairn puppy last week, mostly because our last Westie had such awful skin problems and I had read that the white breeds suffer more with skin problems. We shall see. So far, hard to tell any differences beyond that of individual personalities-i.e. new Cairn puppy more like our livelier Westie puppy.

[Greg P]

Here is a Reader's Digest version of the story:

Colonel Edward Donald Malcolm is credited with developing the Westie from cairns. It seems he got tired of shooting his terriers on the hunt and found the white terriers easier to identify in the field. They were originally called "Roseneath Terriers" after his farm.

Cairns, Westies and Scotties were often found in the same litters at the end of the 19th century. The Scottish fanciers broke first in the late 1800's. Soon afterward they petitioned for an all white Scottish terrier, as well. In 1908 Westie stud books were opened. In 1909, the tussle of names between the "Skye" terrier and "Cairn" terrier came to head and the hard coated, prick eared version became "Cairns".

From the AKC:

"The Cairn Terrier standard in England permitted white as a color until 1923. The interbreeding of Cairns and West Highland White Terriers had occurred in both England and the United States. However, the AKC (who had given the breed official recognition in 1913) in 1917 barred any Cairn from registration if it was a product of "such a mixed breeding practice.""

A very interesting bit of trivia:

Mrs. Alastair Campbell, who is regarded as the "first lady" of Cairn breeders had the first Cairn Terrier champion, CH Gesto.

"Gesto's sire was Sgithanach Bhan, a dog who was either a white Cairn or a West Higland Terrier, depending on who was discussing him." (From the Cairn Terrier by Christine Carter)

Gesto is found in most English and American pedigrees.

[bradl]

In addition to the info from previous posts, magadog (who wrote a book on Westies) offered the following once in a topic named, amusingly enough, Cairns vs. Westies. The Westies I typically see are often a fair bit heavier boned than I am used to with our Cairns.

[Hagar]

Greg P.

Your version is consistent with the TV show "Dogs 101". The series didn't do a segment on Cairns, but in the segment about the origin of the Westie, stated that Colonel Malcolm had rather poor eyesight and accidently shot his red Cairns after mistaking them for foxes. The result was that he developed a "White Cairn" that could more easily be seen, later known as the Westie.

The following is based on my own observations, and is in no way scientific or based on breed standards.

In my area Cairns are relatively rare, but Westies are a dime a dozen and we have met quite a few on our walks. A couple of differences I have noticed when Renny and a Westie are close enough to compare is that the Westies seem to have slightly longer legs and a slightly shorter spine, making the Westies more "square" when viewed from above, but are otherwise very similar in appearance.

Most Westies I've seen also seem to be groomed differently from Cairns. The Westies in my area tend to be clipped fairly close along the back and sides, with longer hair low on the sides. The Westies are also trimmed differently around the face for more of a puppy look. The few other Cairns I've seen tend to be like Renny and are left more "natural" as far as grooming goes.

[bradl]

I saw the Dogs 101 segment on Westies and not being a Westie person can't really speak to their accuracy on the breed (the part you mentioned is consistent with everything I've ever heard about the origin of the Westie). It seemed accurate to me as a non-Westie person.

However almost everything that episode said about Earthdog was either dead wrong, or at least half-wrong, so that made me wonder about accuracy in other areas.

[SparkyJonesMom]

It always seems like the ears on a Cairn are a little longer than a Westie. And their legs seem a little longer, too.

[josie&holly]

Met an interesting combination yesterday when I took Holly to a local country park. I thought it was a Cairn with a longer tail........... red brindle too but turned ot to be what the couple with him said was a "Westlie"!!

Mum was a West Highland and Dad a Sheltie!! but looked very similar to a Cairn apart from tail.

Also living near me is a cross between a West Highland and a Jack Rusell - colour again is like my Holly but has a sharper face and shorter body. Strangely enough also called Holly!

Going back to West Highlands - friends have had those and consider they are easier to train than Cairns, but harder to keep clean!!

[Greg P]

It always seems like the ears on a Cairn are a little longer than a Westie. And their legs seem a little longer, too.

One of the biggest points of differences between well bred Cairns OR Westies, and casually bred or puppy mill animals is the ear size and placement. Well bred Cairns and Westies should have small, erect and well placed ears.

[Nikki]

The last time I took Angel to the dog park down the street there was like 8 or 9 Westies. the terrier's kinda took over the dog park that day. Angel only wanted to play with Westies...

Any ways I was talking with the Westie owners and they kept talking about the skin of their Westies and how dark it was. I dunno if that is just a white dog thing or a Westie. but Angel or Scotty do not have dark skin like that. I know that Angel is a bit on the small side for a cairn (12-13lbs) but the Westie seemed a lil bigger and more stocky built. I took a lil video with my cell phone...you can kinda see that they are bigger minus the Westie puppy that was there.

[cairnrescueleague]

At least in rescue, rescue westies tend to be bigger than rescue cairns. Unless it's overweight, it's unusual to get a rescue cairn that's much over 20, 22 lbs. at the most (most are around 15-16), but not so unusual to get westies that big and bigger. I believe that westies have more health problems than cairns.

[pkcrossley]

it might be possible that westies have received more of the deleterious genes, since their breeding pool has probably been more restricted. scotties and then westies were sliced off the main branch of western scottish terriers earlier than cairns, and in the case of westies there is the very stiff criterion that the dog must be pure white. that means greater founder effect and more amplification of any troublesome genes. "cairns" were the last to be put into the breeding straightjacket, and probably remain much closer to the robustness of the original stock because of toleration for differences in coat color and, to some extent, in size. most likely a litter crossed between westie and cairn or scottie and cairn would come out looking a lot like the ancestral terriers (but it would be looks only, since the full genetic profile would have to reflect the distortions of a century of selection on the basis of arbitrary "breed" standards).

[Mick]

Thanks for the responses, very informative. I am probably biased, but, from hanging around a few Westies and comparing them to our Cairn our Carin seems to be a bit more prepetually happy and generally positively interested in all manner of folks and fellow canines. The Westies are not quite as "open" to all that life has to offer They (Westies) are also wonderful dogs and do seem to be very similar

Have fun with your bundles of life!

[toomanypaws]

Having 3 Cairns and 1 Westie, I find them very similar. Both are a very, very smart, stubborn, loyal, energetic, mischevious and feisty. Both can become an obedience problem if I am not firm, patient, and consistent. Of my Cairns, my youngest Hannah won't leave the house even if there's an open door. Abbey will run maybe as far as the neighbors, but will come when called. Then there's Kiara. She will not come back and can never be trusted. If she gets lose, the game of chase has begun. There's no getting her until she's cornered. All 3 are very loving, especially Hannah. Kiara is my most independent one.

Having said that, my Westie Ninja is close to perfect. I call him my little foo foo dog. I think he thinks he's a Maltese. He's small, barely hit 10 lbs and prefers to be carried around. He loves sleeping w/ us. If I'm not carrying him, he's on my lap. He won't leave my side, even outside, he won't run off. You'll usually find me doing my desk work w/ Ninja on my lap and Hannah at my feet. Those two follow me around.

I've never had an allergy problem, but I do have Ninja on grain free and hollistic raw diet. He only drink distilled water. He is very white!

[bradl]

I don't know when they stopped using this particular copy, but I used to love it when Roger Caras would say while introducing the Westie at Westminster, "Anyone in a room with a West Highland White Terrier will be reminded of their good fortune at regular intervals." (I'm paraphrasing, probably.)