still not housebroken at 4 years old

[PaulH]

Have tried everything including a professional trainer. I am at my wits end. vet still says she is healthy. She is a dominant female. If my daugther wasn't so attached to her, I would have to find her a loving new home. She is loving but completely unpredictable when it come to peeing and pooping. Have tried the leash thing, ringing a bell, trying to get her to give me a singnal of any kind. She won't ring her bell.

I train German Shepherds and have done so for 5 years. I know this is a different breed. I have tried every positive, reward, etc method and have consulted other trainers. My GSD breeder has chihuahuas, and a terrior. She is one of the best trainers in the country. Nothing she has tried or told me to try has worked.

I posted last in the summer 2006 with the exact same posts. I tried those things over the years, She has never been 100% trustworthy.

Any Help???

PaulH

[Puddlesmama]

after going back..

Did you try the leash that someone advised? How often does she go out? I dont think it is impossible..But she may just have a small bladder?

Is she an excessive drinker? Have you tried regulating when she gets her water to coinside how much time outside she needs?

Im just not sure which techniques you have tried. Im not a top trainer or anything but Id never give up trying.

when my pup was having some issues in the beginning and all the health problems were ruled out..I figured that i needed to be a bit more consistant. And the first thing was to boink myself in the head with a newspaper for allowing it to happen. It wasnt her fault..it was mine for not being vigilant. When i became consistant..So did she.

Good luck.

[josie&holly]

Holly, who is 5, I rehomed from a very good breeder last August. She does not ask to go out - have not yet got her to do that - but I send her out after meals/play and in the evening before bed, and after wandering round in garden for a while she will wee or poop. Have to throw a little biscuit out to get her out quite often which is like giving reward before she should get it. Now when she goes to back door and appears to want go out - it is really the biscuit she wants!

However, I have had the odd accident inside and that is getting less. It usually happens if something has made her nervous [like fireworks or car back-firing outside but she is not normally nervous] but has also happened after she has been outside for some reason!

I think in Holly's case she had run and kennel to use and never needed to actually "ask", but I am working on it. Have found useful information on this Forum which has helped me. I find that I watch her for signs but she is not very obvious.

Hoping she gets it though before I need to renew lounge carpet!

Edited December 31, 2008 by Holly&me

[PaulH]

Yes I use the leash method with all puppies and did for at least 2 years. She goes out 7-8 times a day. Several times to play. Takes a card ride which she loves and takes walks. Not an excessive drinker. I measure how much she drinks and eats each day. It is fairly constant. She has gotten excited when xompany comes and peed. But on walks, she is excited to see people and try to get them them to pet her but she does not urinate. When there has been little to no progress in a few years, it starts to get to me. Maybe she has a small blatter but she can drop a dirty bomb anytime anywhere in the house. She has been out for a longtime then come in and go. Consistency is my middle name. It drives my daughter crazy.

She is due for her check up and I am going to be more demanding that the vet give me some suggestions. I found a website that describes each small breed dog. It mentioned that they are hard to housebreak in general. That would be the opposite of my German Shepherd who took 15 min to housebreak when he was 8 weeks old and was trained within 15 minutes of sitting in the house. He went to the door and did a perfect sit and looked up at the dooor handle.

Thanks for your helps.

Paul

[bradl]

One overall stategy for housebreaking that can be generalized and implemented any number of ways is to simply make it easy to do the right thing and impossible to do the wrong thing. This can require supervision on a level that would make the Secret Service look like slackers.

The mindset is that you, personally, are both responsible for, and in control of, when the dog goes. Housbreaking is more of a habit, not so much a matter of 'knowledge' - so building of muscle-memory and routines are very helpful. Dogs love routines and while we think they are stubbornly refusing to 'learn' housebreaking, what they really have is a completely successful of habit of elimination that does not align well with our hearts and desires. It's not just that as soon as we turn our backs the dog somehow goes. It may be that dog is *waiting* for us to turn our back so he *can* go, because, hey, that's how we do it here.

We have had to do this with a stubborn puppy and yes, it really does mean 100% laser-tracking of the dog's every single moment loose, keeping her within either arm's reach or a half-second dash to scoop her up and take her outside the literal second the thought of elimination comes into her mind. A tether is a great idea, but if you are looking out the window instead of at the dog, your tethered dog can just as easily be peeing on your shoe. This is where a crate can be helpful to give yourself an little time to let the dizzyness subside from eye-tracking a busy dog. (I'm exaggerating, but only slightly.)

I've never seen a dog not give some sort of sign, even if it takes me a long time to recognize them. Sometimes they are quite obvious, circling or sniffing and whatnot, but for some dogs about all you get are perhaps a momentary change of focus in the eyes and perhaps a tiny shift of balance in their gait or stance. I have many times scooped up a puppy with a startle-command of "WAIT" and rushed her outside when her only real crime was to try to sit down.

[Sandi16]

Ugh you're giving me a glimpse of my future I know it. Louie has a bladder the size of a shot glass or something. His signal is to stand quietly by the door. EAsy to miss in a loud household like mine.

One of my favorite stories is the first time I took Louie to a pet store for food and goodies. Met a lady with a westie and a cairn attatched to her waist. I asked how long it took her to train her cairn and she said "Oh goodness 10 months? But we got it!" and then we looked down... he was taking a pee at that very moment on the floor. ROFL

[pkcrossley]

yeah, this can be a headache. i've heard people claim that their dogs have iron will and infinite bladders, and NEVER NEVER NEVER have an "accident" in the house. i am skeptical. everybody has accidents (even people, though it isn't considered a subject for discussion like dog accidents). a housebroken dog is probably 99 percent housebroken. so, the first step is probably to make a realistic assessment. if your dog goes indoor once, he or she is probably still a housebroken dog. if your dog always goes indoors, that's another problem.

paul, your is a tough case and i would say that to take the pressure off yourself your dog should probably wear a nice diaper in the house. it isn't that hard to get used to. there are dogs who are actually incontinent, or partly so, because of a physical defect or because of old age. living with diapers (which come in some cute styles) is a lot easier than living with the frustrations of house soiling or the life-long guilt of giving up a lovable dog.

in louie's case, he has already got it. but if he finds that his signals are ignored, he will lose confidence in the system and start doing whatever nature is suggesting. louie's future housetraining might need ameliorative work of the kind brad suggests if his confidence in the system isn't restored. very young dogs don't have the control of older ones, and they might need more trips now than they will later. if louie's signal is not loud enough, he can be taught to use a bell (common discussion here) to break through the din.

[rileyboy]

I have a new puppy that is now 4 months old. I was advised to keep him in a crate or baby gated area and let him out in intervals. It seems cruel at first but they said that he has to earn free roam of the house and yours has clearly not earned that yet. I babygate Riley in a small area for awhile then let him outside. If he does not go then he goes back in the gated area. Then in a while I let him out again and if he goes he gets free roam of only a portion of our house. But he is only out with supervision and then only for awhile and then he goes back in the gate again.

Also, I find that he pees after every play, drink, eat, snack, etc. so I gate him after those things "if" he does not go potty. After we play outside I bring him in for only a minute to end play time then we go back out to go potty separate from being out to play. He can be out all day but come in and pee so I have to keep them separate.

This is the only thing that is working for Riley. He is still not trained but I am told that consistency is the key. For example, whatever procedure you follow, you may have to do that for 5 months or so! I wish you well. I too am going crazy already and I have only had Riley for 2 months...I can't imagine 4 years.

[liswithans]

I too am getting that sinking feeling as I glimpse my future...

I have a 1.5 year old spayed Cairn (love of my life) who only pees in my mom's house. She could hold it for EVER in my apartment, and when I take her over to family and friends', she goes and sits by the door if she needs to go, even if she's never been in that house before. Then I move back home and as much as she loves my mom and my other dogs (which she obviously does), she has no problem peeing and pooping in the house, no matter what we do. I'm not even bothering to get her vet checked because from her behaviour when I would return my place, it's entirely obvious that she can hold it and has no bladder problems. What she is is a very intelligent and willful little girl who is trying to tell us something, although for the life of me I can't figure out what, since she has more at her disposal (friends to play with, better places to walk, large backyard) than she did in my tiny little apartment.

No solutions to offer, but good luck to you. I reckon it is just some sort of message and this is the only way their crazy little brains can think to convey it.

[pkcrossley]

liswithans i don't think you should have a sinking feeling --some of us would give a lot to have a dog as reliable as your cairn is everywhere except your mom's house. there's something about your mom's house that tells her that it is the same as the outdoors. could be a smell, a feeling, a disembodied spirit. who knows? it is amazing but wonderful that it doesn't affect her anywhere else. this is a big problem for your mom, obviously, but doesn't bode lll for the future of your dog. altogether i think paulH's problem is different, and clearly very trying. but in the final analysis there alternatives to perfect housetraining, if that proves to be impossible for some strange (and maybe undiagnosable) problem --exclusion from some parts of the house, and/or diapers. there is always hope that sensitive and conssitent retraining will help, but while waiting for that, one can take the pressure off everybody.

[PaulH]

Thanks everyone for your empathy and suggestions. I have always used the leash method with every puppy I have ever had. The leash goes on my belt and the pup goes where I go. Rewards and praise when they go outside. Always take them out the same door to the same place, etc. I may try the diaper method. I also may pen her in the kitchen which is large and has a vinyl floor. But I don't want her to get used to peeing anywhere except outside. There is some submission urination when guests come over occasioanlly but I tell people to ignore her for 15 minutes then pet her.

Thanks,

Paul

[PaulH]

Update to an old story, 5 Yrs later. After my last post in 2009, Abby bit me on the fleshy part of my first knuckle. Boy did that hurt. Only dog ever to bite me after training dogs for 10 years, mostly German Shepherd Dogs. About the same time, our cat of 14 years died of cancer. My daughter had finished college and loved Abby too. She asked if she could have Abby when she moved out to get a job. That was 3-4 years ago. Abby loves being held like a baby. My daughter held the cat that way, Abby just turned nine. She is doing great living with one daughter and gets to visit with my other two daughters too.

[mom42terrificgirls]

I just want to give you a hug because we have had Callie for a year in June; she is still not housebroken, but it's really not her fault. Her last walk is before dark. She probably pees two to three times during the night, but thankfully, is using the potty pads. Things would be different if we could take her out after dark, but after three months of doing that and seeing no difference, we gave up. Not worth getting mugged over. LOL Sometimes I'll put a clean pad down and she will immediately pee a little on it. I think she's marking.

 

I don't limit her water at night because I already limit it during the days she's home alone (once or twice a week), so she would get not water. She doesn't even drink what  give her anyway. I don't crate her because again, I would be crating her during the day and all night.

 

Have you thought of using diaper covers?

 

Oops, now I see you have. That's what I resorted to for awhile until I was absolutely sure she was going to use the pads. I put handi wipes in them and throw them in the washer. It was funny because she would pee and then look at the pad like, "Where did it go?" LOL

 

As far as pooping, I can pretty much rely on her to poop at certain times of the day, so we haven't had too much problem in that area unless it is storming or flooding outside where we walk. 

 

Hugs to you.

[PaulH]

Thank you for your kind words. I still train German Shepherd Dogs and have given the issue of house breaking small dogs a lot of thought. If you read about dogs and size, it seems to get harder the smaller the dog. I would not use pee pads period. Training them to pee in the house from the beginning cannot be right. At the very least if I had to use them, I would sprinkle grass on them in the house and then again as the pup is moved outside by the same door to the same place using the same word like "go pottie" or whatever you say.  Lots of praise and a treat after finished needs to be part of it. Speaking 9 years later, I think I did all that except putting grass on the pee pad. I would find a breeder who is having a litter in the spring so you have lots of good weather to teach.  Getting to play with both parents would be great when you find a good breeder. I know nothing about Cairn lines like I do about West German working line GSDs.

 

Good Luck

[Jack Hoffman]

Hi I used to be PaulH but had to reregister. Just checking in to say Abby is 12.5 years old. Not house broken.  Also  submissive urination and crate continues to need cleaned daily. We never give up but changed our expectations. If I had one thing to blame it would be those darn pee pads. Never would have used them. My daughter has had Abby since she bit me. She does like female humans better. She has seen me 2-3 times in the last few years and she shows no sign of knowing me and is not outwardly friendly.  The issue here is that no dog should be that hard to house break period

Peace

[pkcrossley]

thanks for the update! sometimes these problems are very anxiety-making to read about because you don't know what kind of choices people will make. i'm so glad to hear that abby had a future and that she and your daughter are happy. we all feel from time to time that cairns make some things much harder than they should ever be. i can only say that my cairns always repaid some of the amazing trouble they caused. GSDs are very different people (and good people). 

[Jack Hoffman]

Hi everyone, Back after almost a year.   Abby is well over 13. My daughters tell me she is doing well. She has done better with housebreaking in the past few years. My neighbor inherited his sons pug after a divorce. He takes that dog out on a leash several times a day. He is so patient. I remember thinking when Abby was 8 wks old that she was so cute she would not need any training. Boy was I dumb. The issue is dogs, like people, change. Now my two German Shepherds have housebreaking issues. The 13 yr old has started defecating in his crate and my 8.5 yr old started peeing in his crate. 

Jack

Edited June 8, 2018 by Jack Hoffman

[Guest dog person]

Both of your dogs are seniors.   I would start with a checkup, lab work and whatever diagnostic tests are indicated by your veterinarian that would lead to your dogs being more comfortable.

Maybe your dogs can no longer tolerate being crated for more than 3 or 4 hours.

Maybe they can no longer tolerate being crated at all.

Yep, getting old sucks, for dogs too :-)

I had a small breed that made it to age 16,  but the last 3 or 4 years he was high maintenance.

Needed bathroom breaks at least every 2 hours.

If they get dementia, they are up at night crying and confused.

Edited June 8, 2018 by dog person

[Monia]

I've had a few minor behavior issues with Lex since I've had her.  A rescue, therefore I don't have much info on her background (been together now for almost 1yr).  I would say in the past 3mths, she has started peeing in the house about 1-3 times / wk.  This is not a lack of laziness on my part, she is taken out often.  Because of her wanting to be the boss, I have not allowed her to sleep in my bed with me for quite some time.  Last week, I took her to bed with me and woke up with we feet.  I didn't get angry with her, I just got up and changed my bed.  last night, I wanted her in bed with me again, again. . . . same issue.  

Advice pls.  do we chalk this up to her being a teenager?  she's approx 3-4yrs old.  Or, do I take her in for a check up?  any advice would be GREATLY appreciated

[Guest dog person]

Urinating in strange places around the house could be indicative of a urinary tract infection and/or struvite crystals.  So yes, I would take her to the vet to rule these things out.   Especially where this is new behavior.   Annual checkups are important anyway, so if she's due..... 

See if you can obtain a urine sample,  first morning pee is best,  sneak up behind her with an empty pill bottle.  If you can't get it, don't worry, the vet can strait cath her,  it only takes a second and doesn't hurt.  Only a small amount of urine is needed.

Edited July 25, 2018 by dog person

[sanford]

1 hour ago, Monia said:

 Last week, I took her to bed with me and woke up with wet feet... last night, I wanted her in bed with me again, again. . . . same issue...do I take her in for a check up?  any advice would be GREATLY appreciated

A urine sample for the vet is definitely warranted, plus a general checkup and blood tests to rule out possible underlying health issues. Urinating one time in the bed could be an accident, but twice could be the start of a trend, so I think the bed should be off limits for a while. Traces of scent could remain in the bed linens after washing and attract Lex so in addition to laundering, resorting to a product like Nature's Miracle scent remover might be necessary. To save your sanity in the event of future episodes, you can find waterproof mattress protectors online.

Good luck... Let us know how things progress!

[Hillscreek]

Agree with above. Keep out of your bed and have your vet give her a check up. Best wishes - and by the way do you have a pic to share with us? We love to look at each others' darlins!

[Monia]

Well, urine test came back clear.  However, the vet has given her some medication as she believes it's anxiety. 

She has now escalated to pooping in the house. . . .GRRRRR.  I'm trying the shaming techniques.  she lowers her head - and sulks.  Certainly hope this is a phase.  When my daughters were young and we would have issues, I would chalk it to a 'PHASE".  Any suggestions are welcome. . . hint, hint!!!

[Guest dog person]

I am glad you are working with a veterinarian.  By medication, do you mean an antidepressant?     Because if her behavior is being caused by depression/anxiety/separation anxiety you may notice some positive results.  Not right away, some of these meds take a week or two to kick in.  

Dogs suffer from these issues just like people do, why not take advantage of the treatment options available.

Once she has been stable for a while, like a few months, you may be able to taper her off the medication under the guidance of your veterinarian.

I wouldn't be too aggressive with the shaming/discipline as it may increase her anxiety.

If you catch her in the act, I would gently say NO and immediately take her outside to the desired elimination area.

By any chance has there been any recent changes in the household?  Someone moving out or someone moving in.....

I ask, because sometimes these things can trigger an anxiety response in a vulnerable dog.

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by dog person