I feel like I've been duped. I bought Sparky on July 1, and the breeder I bought him from did not have his papers at the time. They said they were still being processed, and that they should have them within a week. I gave them my address and they said they would mail them to me (the breeder lived about 100 miles from me) that following week. Well, it's been 2 months and still no papers. I have repeatedly called this breeder, and even sent a letter, and the few times they answer (and believe me, I've called A LOT), they keep saying things like, "Oh we haven't gotten the papers yet" or "Oh, we should have them this weekend." This all sounds a little ridiculous to me, and I'm starting to think I'll never see Sparky's registered papers. It's not that big of a deal because I wouldn't care if Sparky was registered or not, but it's just the fact that I spent my money and time driving out there, and it seems like they have just lied to me this whole time. Has anyone else had an experience like this, or have I been had?

If you know the AKC name of the Dam and Sire you might try calling AKC and see if the litter is registered. If it is ask them how you get the papers on the puppy you purchased from the breeder. Did you sign a contract, what did it say? Alot of breeders will not send pet people the papers until they have proof the pet was spayed or neutered.

good luck

Thanks for the advice. I just got off the phone with the breeder (I'm shocked that they answered! They're probably sick of me calling...) and they said they have mailed the papers, so now we'll just see if I get them or not.

The papaers usually come with the pup they sign over to you and you sign and send in as having transferred ownership -his registration number should have been on the papers - are you sure they didnt give you a paper with sire and dame names and their registration numbers? and maybe sparky still needed to be registered?

Do you know which registry your breeder is using?

Do you plan/hope to breed or enter your dog in any organized dog events?

Registration papers really don't mean anything unless you are planning on breeding or showing/competing with your dog. Still, if you paid for a "papered" pup you should not give up 'til you get the papers.

If the papers are not from the AKC and you do not plan on starting a puppy mill I would call it a learning experience and move on.

George

I still don't have Desta's AKC papers, although the previous owner showed me a xerox copy. When I asked for her papers the owner said, "You're planning to have her spayed, right? So you don't need them." Funny, how when I asked on the phone if the dog was spayed the woman told me, "No, and we're not willing to do that so if you don't want her I'll call the next person on the list." Then she says "She's had four litters of puppies and I don't want anymore from her." Seems she could have had her spayed before dumping her on craigslist and removed all doubt.

Anyway, I told them that I had an AKC Corgi who I hoped to compete in AKC Agility and if Desta showed any talent I would want to compete her too, or maybe some other AKC sport. One of the reasons I looked at her is because she was "advertised" as AKC. This "breeder" didn't even know that spayed/neutered dogs could still compete in AKC events (except for conformation). They promised me the papers when I show proof of spay, which is fair enough. (Desta's heartworm misdiagnosis threw off our scheduled July spay, so now I'm waiting for her heat so I can schedule her spay mid-cycle.)

I'm relating this story just to say that I think the papers are important and would not just forget about it. Even if you don't plan to compete in any sports today, in 2-3 years you might decide it would be fun and you'll need the papers or an ILP to compete. If the papers don't show up in the mail, I would keep bugging the breeder until you get them or report her to the AKC.

I still don't have Desta's AKC papers, although the previous owner showed me a xerox copy. if Desta showed any talent I would want to compete her too, or maybe some other AKC sport.

You can go the route of getting an PAL/ILP registration with the AKC for Desta.... you can then enroll in all the AKC performance trials you want.... I'ts on the AKC website, you just send in photos and fill a form out.

Don't be too quick to assume that every purebred Cairn pup is eligible for AKC registration. For those that do not have AKC registration and still want to play dog games ILP/PAL is a terrific option, however, it does require that the dog be spayed/neutered. The ILP/PAL will enable a dog to enter both companion (not breed specific) and performance (breed specific) events. In the case of Cairns I believe that covers everything except Conformation.

George

I'm familiar with the ILP process and requirements. There is no reason that Sparky's mom or I should have to go the ILP route when the breeders advertised AKC dogs. It's more expensive and not exactly the same thing. (I am assuming that Sparky's breeder was promising AKC papers, not another registry.) I did see a copy of Desta's AKC registration and wrote her number down, so I know she is AKC registered. I doubt there will be any issue from the breeder about transferring ownership of registration to me as soon as I show proof of having Desta spayed. Even if she wants me to pay the transfer of ownership fee, it's a lot less expensive than going the ILP route.

Thanks for all the replies. I definitely wasn't planning on breeding Sparky, so the AKC registered papers really aren't that important. Papers or no papers, he's still my Sparky and I wouldn't care if I found him on the side of the road somewhere. But I think it's just the principle of the fact that they advertised registered puppies with papers, and they did not deliver (or haven't yet, at least). This is my first time to ever spend money when getting a dog, too, so I really didn't know how things worked (growing up my parents would only let me get a pound puppy or a free give away, which was fine). I just trusted that the breeders would do the right thing. I'll be checking my mail everyday, and hopefully everything will be straightened out in a few days!

I agree..the Principle throws disregarding it out of the window..Both of my girls are spayed. Even though they are not acceptable to play Cairn games yet..One day they may. Plus...Id have a empty spot on my walls where their pedigree lives

I'm a pretty big advocate of getting a dog AKC registered (or PAL'd if necessary and appropriate) so that you can participate in companion and performance events. Mainly because I've seen and experienced firsthand the benefits and the bond that working with your dog toward a specific goal establishes. I think it's probably a fair guess that very few titled dogs are dumped into rescue. Anyone who spends the time, and has established the bond, to achieve an AKC title with their dog usually has all the tools, tolerance, and tenacity they need to cope with almost any issue that comes up with their dog. Obviously many people do all that and more without registration - there's nothing magical about registration - I'm just saying it's the sort of thing that can open new vistas and venues for dog and handler.

When I bought my second puppy Griffin the breeder forgot to sign the AKC paperwork. I was suspicious about it at first but eventually they called me, told me they were in town and could we meet so that they could sign the paperwork. The breeder also suggested waiting a while so that you can be sure what color the puppy will actually be. Our first Cairn Gigi is 17 weeks now and her Brindle coat is changing - possibly to grey. Griffin has also lightened up substantially and will be creme color but you never know since he is only 14 weeks at present.

Mike, Vicki, Nick, Grace, Gigi & Griffin

We have a similiar problem with the puppy we bought last winter. We have papers, just not the AKC papers we thought we were getting.

I tried calling the breeder and have never got a response as to why. I did however find out from others that the breeder we bought him from is advertising as AKC but not all the breeds they have are AKC registered. It seems the Cairns are one that aren't.

I stopped pressing the issue as we love Toto and don't really care if he's registered or not. It was the deception that really upset us more than anything. Muggs doesn't have papers, as he is a rescued Cairn. They're our babies, plain and simple!

Did you get your papers? I know our KC takes awhile here...I waited 6 weeks for them to come back to me. Sparky is so cute too in his pic!

Hi, Sparky's Mom!

Hmmmm, well, I have no idea where you live or where you got sweetie-pie Sparky, but I'll bet you a dollar:

1) He came from an infamous "back-yard" breeder

2) You bought him out of the newspaper or from some other public advertisement

3) The "breeder" has used the word "AKC" to dupe folks into thinking her dogs are good quality when they have NOT been selectively bred, professionally evaluated or health tested for anything

4) The "breeder" has one motivation - to make $$$ off puppies

5) The "breeder" never registered the litter, either because she doesn't know how to do it or doesn't have papers on the sire and dam. Otherwise, she could have very easily given you the litter registration number, pending Sparky's individual registration.

The AKC says litters must be registered within 6 months of whelping (birth) or a penalty applies. Then, pups with litter registration papers must further be individually registered within 12 months after that, or penalties apply. CAUTION to puppy buyers: ALWAYS GET PAPERS when you pick up your pup, OR copy down all the dam and sire's registration information. The AKC used to tell you that if you neglected to get papers when you took possession of a pup, it wasn't their problem. Nowadays, fortunately, it seems they will not prevent you from registering Sparky if you can prove his parentage. For that, you need their registered names and AKC numbers. (For more info, visit the AKC website.)

Here's my own, personal definition of a professional breeder: someone who breeds, whelps, trains, grooms and handles her own dogs in AKC-licensed conformation events and has independent, impartial, AKC-licensed judges tell her she has produced good bloodstock. Breeding animals have been health tested and are either AKC champions or championship-pointed before being bred. Professional breeders DO NOT advertise in newspapers or sell to pet shops. Pro breeders raise dogs in order to maintain and preserve the breed, not solely for the purpose of making a buck off them. It's a life-long, time-consuming and expensive HOBBY for the love of dogs.

None of this is Sparky's fault -- he's just an adorable, sweet little pup. The "breeder" is an opportunist making money off of innocent little puppies (but that's just my opinion). There's no reason you can't call the woman and insist she give you either the litter registration number (I doubt it exists), the dam/sire's registered name and AKC number.

The delay in sending your papers may result from the fact that the breeder hadn't registered the litter first and then had to wait on the individual registration papers from AKC, issued to each puppy in a litter. The second one is the form you'll send back to AKC registering Sparky in your name.

If the litter is not actually AKC registered, and the breeder sends you "documents" from the United Kennel Club (UKC), America's Pet Registry (APR), the National Kennel Club (NKC), or similar, you can consider yourself the proud owner of a lovely piece of paper (again, my opinion). I wouldn't waste a stamp sending them in.

If I were you, my greatest concern would be Sparky's health. I would have a bile acid level test (it's a two-part blood analysis, drawn by a vet) as soon as possible to check for inherited liver disease. Every litter I have gets the test at 8 to 10 weeks of age, and every Cairn I place comes with the diagnostic laboratory test results of the bile acid level. Other than that, skin allergies is the most common complaint I hear from people who get pups from back-yard or commercial breeders. If his health is OK, Sparky looks like a little darlin' and should bring you many years of companionship and love. Whether you get AKC papers on him or not, you must realize that Sparky's "breeder" has NOT conducted herself as a professional breeder would have.

Hope this helps! Hugs to Sparky!

If the litter is not actually AKC registered, and the breeder sends you "documents" from the United Kennel Club (UKC), America's Pet Registry (APR), the National Kennel Club (NKC), or similar, you can consider yourself the proud owner of a lovely piece of paper (again, my opinion). I wouldn't waste a stamp sending them in.

I agree with most of your opinions however I would not lump the UKC with the other KCs that you mention. I agree that for Cairn Terriers (in the U.S.) the AKC is the premiere registry however I know of no irregularities in the UKC registry that would cause me to disparage UKC registration. Further, for many non-AKC breeds the UKC is the only legitimate all breed registry available.

The UKC is geared more toward performance dogs and offers a full calendar of dog games. Both of my dogs were registered with the AKC as pups. I chose to have them UKC registered (in addition to AKC---dual registered!) because I prefer some UKC events/venues to their AKC counterparts. We compete in both AKC and UKC Obedience as do most of those that we compete with in UKC events. There are several UKC sports that do not have any AKC counterparts.

I support UKC.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/Home

George

Be sure not to confuse UKC with UKCI - which is representative of dunraeven's caveats. Here's a Canadian rundown of "alternative" registries. Their assessment of UKC (the real one) is in line with George's.

a good breeder is proud of their kennel name, and wants to protect that reputation. I have 2 from the same breeder, I compete in Rally and Earthdog, ans will enter reg. obed. soon. My first dog was nuetered before he hame to me. The papers were signed and presented to me that day. The 2nd, I had spayed, but the papers were sent to me once I sent the breeder proof of spay, in the form of a letter from my vet. This dog carries my breeders kennel name. They will offer a limited registration, but I have never before heard of a true breeder with holding papers... short of a breech of contract. Did you get a contract?

To George: I appreciate your support for the UKC, and I wish you all the best and much success in UKC-sponsored events. I don't want to argue the merits of one kennel club over another, however, in repeating my opinion, I do NOT have any particular regard for the UKC. I DO feel that UKC's Limited Privilege Registration is on the same par as AKC's, but that's different than eligibility for conformation exhibition. Neither registration implies a standard of quality or health. You have your reasons for approving and I have my reasons for disapproving. My comments were only relative to Sparky's mom getting papers from his breeder. Thanks! Kathy

Thanks dunraeven, and to everyone else. I admit that I did get Sparky from a newspaper ad, and after spending time here on the forum I realize that's not the way to go about it. But he's my first puppy ever (that wasn't a free mutt), so I really didn't know how to go about it. I just saw "Cairn Terrier" and I jumped at the chance to get him. I still haven't received my papers, so I'm calling them today and asking for the litter registration number and the dam/sire's registered name and AKC number.

I'm sure I just got screwed over. The number I had been calling has been disconnectd, so I googled their names and found another phone number, which turned out to be the sister-in-law of the breeder. I told her the situation, and she said that I wasn't getting screwed over because "that's my brother-in-law." Not a good argument, if you ask me. But she gave me his new number, so I'll be calling today.

Now I know what to do when I go about buying a puppy. I keep saying that I got screwed over by the breeder, but I mean, I really didn't. I got a beautiful, spunky, sweet little puppy out of the deal, and that's all that matters. He's been to the vet more times I've been to the doctor in the past 5 years, and he's been given a clean bill of health. So far I haven't noticed any sort of skin problems, but I'll remember to be on the lookout for it if anything comes up.

Thanks again to everyone, and I hope you all don't think I'm a bad person for buying Sparky out of the newspaper. Cairn Terriers aren't popular around here (I only know of one other one I've ever seen in central Arkansas), so I just jumped at the first chance I saw to get one. I don't regret it, because if I had gone any other way, I wouldn't have got the puppy I got, and he's perfect. But next time I'll do it the right way!

Thanks again to everyone, and I hope you all don't think I'm a bad person for buying Sparky out of the newspaper. Cairn Terriers aren't popular around here (I only know of one other one I've ever seen in central Arkansas), so I just jumped at the first chance I saw to get one. I don't regret it, because if I had gone any other way, I wouldn't have got the puppy I got, and he's perfect. But next time I'll do it the right way!

Of course you're not a bad person!! Getting your pet from a reputable breeder, or a breed-rescue, are the best options, but it's not possible for everyone, for financial reasons, location, and in your case, just not being aware. In our case, I was fortunate to stumble across this Forum before we decided to get another dog, and after reading a bunch of the posts, I decided to check out Cairns & breeders. We had never purchased a dog from a breeder before either. The care you are giving Scottie, and how much you love him are proof enough that you are not a bad person!!

I got my very first Cairn out of the newspaper, too! I didn't have a clue about breeders, mainly because we didn't have accessible information and forums like this back then. He was the love of my life and lived to be 14 years old. I'm sure Sparky will be just fine -- and he looks like he has a TON of personality!

No one thinks you are a bad person. A lot of people buy from backyard breeders or puppy mill stock through pet stores without knowing the "3-levels" of quality in pure bred dogs. Fact is, only 10% of puppies come from reputable breeders, 60% from backyard breeders, and the remaining 30% from commercial puppy mill/pet shop breeders. I personally would like to see puppy mills shut down due to the mistreatment and neglect that is rampant in that group, and see more pressure put on backyard breeders to raise their breeding ethics and standards so that people who want a quality purebred dog can get one. Unfortunately that is a pipedream. The only way I see that to be possible is to educate the puppy buying public, one person at a time, to know the difference in breeder groups, boycott the puppy mills, and put pressure on the "60%" to do health and temperament testing, offer lifetime guarantees, and be more particular about the quality of their pedigrees. Everyone deserves a healthy, happy pup...no matter the source. Now that you're among the "educated", spread the word to others.

I do hope you get your papers. It is a matter of principle and ethics more than anything else.

Hi Sparkysmom! I am a former Arkansan - lived in Springdale, Fayetteville and Little Rock.

Question in general to the board - what is considered a backyard breeder? I contacted the CTCA for breeder referrals in my area. The contact didn't have any puppies but referred me to a couple of people who used her stud service. The two referrals didn't have a kennel, but breeded their female Cairns. The person I bought Buckley from interviewed me, provided me with three generations of lineage and the AKC papers. Buickley was 4 months old and I asked her why she still had him. She wanted to make sure he went to a loving home and has turned down some people. I believe this was the first set of puppies. Buckley's owner kept his littermate to show. Is this a backyard breeder or a reputable breeder?