I have a 6 month old female Cairn Terrier. I live in Norther NY surrounded by hay fields. We live on a dairy farm. Chloe stays put on our property and with our Coonhoud/Lab so I don't tie her when she goes out to do her duty. Yesturday she brought back a woodchuck a little bit smaller than her. She shook the thing to death! Anyhow my question is, can a full grown woodchuck kill her if she comes across one? She goes right down in the holes. I don't want to have to tie her since she is so good, but I also don't want her to get killed or something. Thanks in advance for your help. Also do you guys have killing machines to or is she just weird?

I don't know much about woodchucks - but Cairns by nature are rodent hunters, mine have killed a squirrel, baby birds etc.... they'll go after anything like that - they have pretty good technique so I probably wouldn't worry about safety too much - they know what they are doing (unfortunately) - besides a tied up dog usually goes crazy and I'd rather have a healthy normal hunting dog with the occasional rodent funeral than a dog that's chained.

Oh thank you! That makes me feel alot better. She is so happy being free, I really didn't want to have to tie her. As long as a dog obeys and stays put...isn't getting hurt I can't see having to tie them!

My only concern if I were you is your sweet little Chloe contracting some

kind of disease from some of the wild animals.

But as others have already said, our Cairn children have a strong instinct

to do this kind of thing.

The only rodents I know of that are safe are our gerbils...but that's because

these intelligent Cairn children are smart enough to figure out who's

family, and what our wishes are about the subject.

I would be scared to death of loosing one of mine. If she ever sees a deer, a rabbit or animal that would run she is gone. If mine are not in a fence they are on a leash with me at the other end. I know my Cairns are really smart and the will to chase is so much a part of the bred.

My pug stays by my side and I can take him out without a leash and he never lets me out of his sight but he was bred to be a companion dog. Even if he sees something to chase he goes just a little ways and turns to look and if I am not coming he stops and comes back to me. My Cairns never look back.....if it weren't for our fence they would have been long gone. They just can't figure how the rabbits get around the fence.

Edited June 16, 200817 yr by hallswel

i think you have the dilemma that all cairn owners have, especially those who live in the countryside. back in the nineteenth century, the ancestors of the cairns were bred to fight and attempt to kill any vermin that they could trap on the land. sometimes these were just rats or rabbits or squirrels, but they might be as big as badgers or wolverines, and cairns were bred with the instinct to fight them too. the breeding did not produce dogs that could discriminate between an animal they were likely to defeat and one they were not likely to defeat. they were bred to use all their muscle and their oversized jaws and teeth, and a lot of fury, to do their best to kill the enemy.

I'd actually be MUCH more concerned that she will be taken by a coyote.

I believe woodchuck is not an excessively dangerous quarry for a Cairn and that there is no outlandish or unusual risk. The usual risks - "life is invariably fatal," wounds get infected, etc. - certainly apply. A lot of Cairns would love to be in your dog's paws, so to speak.

Leaving aside rats - pretty much all dogs will rat although clearly terriers are unusually effective and enthusiastic about it - my limited and amateur understanding is that a common job for Cairns and similar terriers was not necessarily to kill larger, fiercer quarry, but to hold or bolt it. As I read it, for groundhog/woodchuck the dog's job is typically to locate the quarry and either drive it out of of the den so the hunter can dispatch it, or hold it at a stop-end so the hunter can dig down and retrieve the quarry. This is the reason for the requirement of teamwork in earthdog for instance, the reason for requiring decisive indication of quarry location, the requirement for audible work, the need to recall the dog once quarry is gone, etc.

As pkcrossely points out - dogs are mostly pets and family members these days, but (hopefully) their working instinct lives on in their genetic makeup. In the past, they were probably also pets, but they were required to get a job and earn their keep. To face teeth and claws in a confined space, one hoped for a dog with the instinct and intellect for self-preservation. A too-hard dog is a damaged or dead dog, and of little utilitarian value. I think in those days, for those folks, there was more risk tolerance. Not to mention the technology didn't even exist to spend $10,000+ on veterinary procedures! It was never a question then. Now it is.

I share Cairnmania's concern that coyote might be the larger concern.

Anyway, I've always loved this description of the various types of terrier work:

Another there is which hunteth the Foxe and the Badger

Or Greye onely, whom we call Terrars, because they crepe into the grounde,

And by that meanes make afrayde, nyppe, and byte the Foxe and the Badger

In such sorte, that eyther they teare them in peeces with theyre teeth

Beyng in the bosome of the earth, or else hayle and pull them perforce

Out of theyre lurking angles, dark dongons and close caves,

Or at the least through conceaved feare, drive them out of theyre

Hollow harbours, in so much that they are compelled to prepare speedy

Flight, and being desirous of the next refuge, are otherwise taken

And intrapped with snayres and nettes layde over holes to the same Purpose.

Dr Johannes Cais, De Canibus Brittanicus (1570) :: translated Abraham Fleming (1576)

"A lot of Cairns would love to be in your dog's paws, so to speak. "

She's still quite a young lass. It appears you have quite a hunter.

Yes, I agree with many here. Our cairns are so darn cute that few can stand the thought of real battle wounds. There are other terrier breeds.....JR's, Patterdale and others who are still bred to do what yours is doing and the owner handlers take pride in a few battle scars!

She is doing what comes naturally. I love to hear that she's willing to go to ground ino a natural tunnel. One of the wonders to me in earthdog trials is the willingness of dogs to go to ground.....in an absence of light.... to pursue a quarry. I just think it's incredible.

......which is another thing to be concerned with. Larger vermin may take over a den. Skunks can be a problem (from both ends -- the spray removes oxygen). And you need to make sure she gets back out and not get stuck. I would think any go to ground activity should be controlled and monitored by you.

A good working terrier was one of the crofters most prized possessions!

Thank you all for the comments! Chloe can be on a dead run chase and if I call her she will turn around and come back. Between our Coonhound and us, we have her pretty well trained in that area. The skunks and Coyotes only come out at night and we watch them closely at night. We go out with them and watch them. Case, our coonhound has been sprayed once and we will prevent that as much as possible! We don't have a huge problem with Coyotes around here, more of a problem with coydogs. Which I'm pretty sure are worse, but I'm petrified of them so I again stay with them at night when they go out. Today I watched her kill her second woodchuck. Her and Case tag team it, so that makes me feel better. Case goes down as far as he can in the hole and then he backs off and Chloe goes down. Out comes the woodchuck and Case keeps it from entering the hole again while Chloe does her thing. It was interesting to watch. But I feel alot more comfortable about it now.

That is so cool, your dogs tag team to get the woodcuck. Sounds like you have control over your two little ones and they know how to handle themselves in the elements of your backyard.

If there was only one thing I could tell people about cairns, it's that they can never be off-leash unless they're in a securely fenced area. It's an accident waiting to happen. Yes, they are hit and killed by cars in the middle of nowhere.

Trust - A Deadly Disease

by Sharon Mathers

There is a deadly disease stalking your dog, a hideous, stealthy thing just waiting its chance to steal your beloved friend. It is not a new disease, or one for which there are inoculations. The disease is called "Trust".

You knew before you ever took your puppy home that it could not be trusted. The breeder who provided you with this precious animal warned you, drummed it into your head. Puppies steal off counters, destroy anything expensive, chase cats, take forever to house train, and must never be allowed off lead!

When the big day finally arrived, heeding the sage advice of the breeder, you escorted your puppy to his new home, properly collared and tagged, the lead held tightly in your hand.

At home the house was "puppy-proofed". Everything of value was stored in the spare bedroom, garbage stowed on top of the refrigerator, cats separated, and a gate placed across the living room to keep at least one part of the house puddle free. All windows and doors had been properly secured, and signs placed in all strategic points reminding all to "Close the door!"

Soon it becomes second nature to make sure the door closes nine tenths of a second after it was opened and that it is really latched. "Don't let the dog out" is your second most verbalized expression. (The first is "No!).

You worry and fuss constantly, terrified that your darling will get out and disaster will surely follow. Your friends comment about who you love most, your family or the dog. You know that to relax your vigil for a moment might lose him to you forever.

And so the weeks and months pass, with your puppy becoming more civilized every day, and the seeds of trust are planted. It seems that each new day brings less destruction, less breakage. Almost before you know it, your gangly, slurpy puppy has turned into an elegant, dignified friend.

Now that he is a more reliable, sedate companion, you take him more places. No longer does he chew the steering wheel when left in the car. And darned if that cake wasn't still on the counter this morning. And, oh yes, wasn't that the cat he was sleeping with so cozily on your pillow last night?

At this point you are beginning to become infected, the disease is spreading its roots deep into your mind.

And then one of your friends suggest obedience classes, and, after a time you even let him run loose from the car into the house when you get home. Why not, he always runs straight to the door, dancing a frenzy of joy and waits to be let in. And, remember he comes every time he is called. You know he is the exception that disproves the rule. (And sometimes late at night, you even let him slip out the front door to go potty and then right back in.)

Years pass - it is hard to remember why you ever worried so much when he was a puppy. He would be beneath his dignity to jump out the window of the car while you run into the convenience store. And when you take him for those wonderful long walks at dawn, it only takes one whistle to send him racing back to you in a burst of speed when the walk comes to close to the highway. (He still gets in the garbage, but nobody is perfect!).

This is the time the disease has waited for so patiently. Sometimes it only has to wait a year or two, but often it takes much longer. He spies the neighbor dog across the street, and suddenly forgets everything he ever knew about not slipping out doors, jumping out windows or coming when called due to traffic. Perhaps it was only a paper fluttering in the breeze, or even just the sheer joy of running...

Stopped in an instant. Stilled forever-Your heart is broken at the sight of his still,

beautiful body.

The disease is trust. The final outcome, hit by a car.

Every morning my dog bounced around off lead exploring. Every morning for seven years he came back when he was called. He was perfectly obedient, perfectly trustworthy. He died fourteen hours after being hit by a car.

Please do not risk your friend and your heart. Save the trust for things that do not matter.

Please read this every year on you dog's birthday, lest we forget.

i'm interested in brad's descriptin of earth dog competitions. we have some very good descriptions of how the ancestors of cairns were used on farms (this is before the differentiation of the breeds and their debuts at the breed shows at the end of the nineteenth century) and they were emphatically not gun dogs. terriers were all bred to do their own killing, and they were readily replaced if they did not succeed. in fact, i think there is very good evidence for the well-known story that the breed was founded on studs and bitches who had been thrown into barrels with badgers. the winners were bred, the losers were tossed into ditches. those of us raised on farms have grown up seeing terriers do their intended thing --on their own (meaning sometimes in a small pack of three or four), without human aid. the advantage of terriers was that they did their work while farmers did theirs.

catching and holding sounds more like an exercise devised for competitions and shows. farmers, who were the original bosses of cairns (as hunters were bosses of retrivers and other gun dogs) were much too busy to follow terriers around all day and shoot or club whatever they spooked or caught. if you have seen a cairn in a frenzy, you have seen the specific behavior that was selected for the founders of the breed. a cairn frenzy --or a frenzy by a small pack of cairns-- doesn't leave much work for a human to do afterward.

dachshunds, on the other hand, were trained to enter burrows and drive the prey out where they could be shot or more likely clubbed by humans.

PK,

While I agree that above ground, you'll likely see teamwork within a pack, often ending with frenzies and vicious death shakes.

Underground may be an entirely different matter.

Modern terriermen who work vermin in natural settes (tunnels) do rely on hold and bolt tactics. I've heard it described as Brad described above that a "too hard dog is a damaged dog or a dead dog."

In our earthdog trials, the practice of sending only one dog in a tunnel (sette) with others honoring is rooted in actual terrier hunts. The above ground dog must be somewhat quiet so that the hunter can hear the dog in the ground. There is much written about digging techniques used to get down to the dog and quarry so the terrierman can in fact dispatch the vermin. Also, I've read that the Westie was developed because a crofter was weary of shooting his dogs in mistake for bolting vermin. The light color showed better.

Underground, all hell breaks looks (vocally), but smart terriers aren't necessarily quick to engage cornered vermin as big or bigger than they are. Down there it's not a pack --- it's one on one. They're brave and will not back down. But they're smart, too.

I will grant you that earthdog trials are sanitized hunt simulations. Sadly, I believe we are also seeing a "sanitation" of the natural instincts that make cairns uniquely cairns. In my mind the show ring is now starting to morph the cairn terrier, both physically and mentally. It's my belief that "gameness" is hereditary and we're seeing lines that don't show much in the way interest in pursuing a hunt. My interests lie in not only correct cairns (conformationally), but cairns with preserved hunting instincts and good temperaments.

Greg wrote: "In my mind the show ring is now starting to morph the cairn terrier, both physically and mentally. It's my belief that "gameness" is hereditary and we're seeing lines that don't show much in the way interest in pursuing a hunt. My interests lie in not only correct cairns (conformationally), but cairns with preserved hunting instincts and good temperaments. "

definitely true, and it can be seen in more and more cairns. it certainly has the promise of making cairns more sociable over time (and perhaps less likely to frenz out over small things), but i agree that a lot of what has historically made the scottish terriers admirable to people is being thinned out by modern breeding standards. when cairns are just another breed of lap dog, it will be a sad day.

the story about breeding westies to avoid shooting cairns might be true; it is attributed to two different men (campbell and malcolm), so maybe not. it makes sense, since landowners were often out hunting and terriers have a tendency to show up where they are not expected.

i'm not convinced that terriermen have a lot to do with the "natural" characteristics of the scottish terriers. these dogs were bred by farmers to work on their own, which they still do on farms all over europe and north america. a small number of professional vermin hunters have always been part of the life of agricultural villages, and some minority of terriers might always have been working with vermin hunters; but most terriers have been handling things on their own for hundreds of years.

it's not impossible for people to work collaboratively with terriers and i'm sure a small number of men and terriers have always been engaged in it. but the large forces shaping the characteristics of the breed come from the farms, and from farmers who didn't have time to do their own vermin hunting. the contrasts between terriers and breeds developed as gun dogs and working dogs are very clear (sometimes painfully so).