Questions about Doggy registrations

[pkcrossley]

that's a great story, greg. i agree that refusing to buy all the other products from the shops may hurt them more; some of the inventory can stay on the shelves forever, others will have to be tossed and unlike with puppies, kittens and guinea pigs, the no-sale cost is probably not already built in.

i don't want to generalize about parts of the country and world i don't know. i do know that in new england not every single pet store buys its puppies from puppy mills; in some small shops, puppies are displayed after an appropriate age on behalf of the breeders. i know that in the mid west where a relative of mine worked as an assistant DA with a specialization in puppy mills and illegal dog brokering, puppy mills have been shut down, more will be shut down, and the puppy mill owners who are not shut down have many, many outlets for their dogs apart from pet shops. i know that in east asia, where i have lived, puppies are rarely raised locally but are in very high demand for pets, for meat, and for medical experimentation. they come mostly from the USA.

i think it comes down to this:

if you buy a puppy from a responsible, reputable breeder, you have bought a dog that many other caring and responsible owners would have liked to have, and they would have raised it as well as you are raising it. lucky you!

if you bought a dog from a pet shop after careful consideration of the issues on both sides, perhaps even after it was too old to be snatched up by clueless impulse buyers, and you raised it with devotion, you saved that dog from possibilities such as: neglect, abuse, rejection, life on the streets, sale to a broker who would have resold it as dog fight "prime" (bait), as restaurant meat for asia or europe, as an ingredient in food for other dogs, or as a lab victim in this country or elsewhere. lucky dog!

[39Tudor]

After I posted last night, I checked out the Westie Rescue website.

Lots of possibilities within a 3 hour drive.

I was impressed with the adoption application. Lots of good questions in the screening process.

I emailed my daughter with the website and hopefully she will see the light.

I'm seriously thinking that my next dog (when I finally engage) will be a rescue Cairn.

Everyone deserves a second chance!

Great discussion and very informational. Thanks everyone.

Jerry

[Cairnmania]

i don't want to generalize about parts of the country and world i don't know. i do know that in new england not every single pet store buys its puppies from puppy mills; in some small shops, puppies are displayed after an appropriate age on behalf of the breeders. i know that in the mid west where a relative of mine worked as an assistant DA with a specialization in puppy mills and illegal dog brokering, puppy mills have been shut down, more will be shut down, and the puppy mill owners who are not shut down have many, many outlets for their dogs apart from pet shops. i know that in east asia, where i have lived, puppies are rarely raised locally but are in very high demand for pets, for meat, and for medical experimentation. they come mostly from the USA.

...

if you bought a dog from a pet shop after careful consideration of the issues on both sides, perhaps even after it was too old to be snatched up by clueless impulse buyers, and you raised it with devotion, you saved that dog from possibilities such as: neglect, abuse, rejection, life on the streets, sale to a broker who would have resold it as dog fight "prime" (bait), as restaurant meat for asia or europe, as an ingredient in food for other dogs, or as a lab victim in this country or elsewhere. lucky dog!

I cannot buy the argument that there is any justifcation for buying a puppy from a pet store to "rescue" it. Virtually forcing a pet store owner to sell at a loss on the basis that if they did not they would have the authorities at their door I don't consider the same thing (as Greg related). I used to help rehome rejects from a pet store. A friend of a friend worked at a major pet story in NYC and when a puppy didn't sell or had some illness that made it unattractive (like a skin problem) she got the puppies - for free. We found loving homes for them that knew their backgrounds. The pups were free because it saved the pet store from calling the vet to put the puppy down. Big pet stores keep puppies pumped on antibiotics - otherwise they would all end up with kennel cough or some other transmittable illness. When they do not sell, the same vet that supplies the antibiotics puts the puppies down. They are not sold as bait for dog fighting or let out on the street or dumped at a shelter - they are unwanted stock and they are killed - plain and simple. Small pet stores may do things differently and I have no doubt that some will dump their excess puppies or take anything they can get for them for whatever reason someone wants to buy it. People engaged in dog fighting are not generally known as the most upstanding citizens, their usual method of obtaining "bait" dogs is to either steal dogs, pick up strays, or use the dogs they themselves have bred but don't come up to the grade. Paying for a bait dog would be one of the last things they want to do, although it may happen sometimes.

There is no such thing as an ethical, responsible breeder who sells - either directly or on consignment - a puppy to a pet store. Ethical breeders who cannot place or sell puppies do not breed more puppies. Ethical breeders belong to breed clubs and if anyone in the club is contacted for a puppy there is generally a "puppy contact" person who knows where there is a litter expected or waiting for new homes. Ethical breeders do not have to rely on their immediate neighborhood for new homes for their puppies. They would rather a puppy they could not place died with them of old age than send them to a pet store.

It does not make economic sense to ship puppies from the US to other parts of the world for medical experimentation and especially as a food source. Why would anyone produce a product in one of the most expensive parts of the world (even with the declining dollar) and ship it to apart of the world such as Asia where production costs are cheap? It's not hard to breed dogs, there's no particular science about it if all you want to do is produce more dogs.

The last place any lab would want to source a puppy from is a puppy mill. When it comes to common animals they use animals of the same breed which come from breeders known to produce healthy, genetically stable stock (that applies to rats, mice, whatever). They have to because otherwise the results of whatever tests they run would be unreliable.

Where is the information coming from that pet shops (or puppy mills directly) sell their unwanted puppies to brokers who then ship them to Europe or Asia for meat in restaurants? Is this fact or fiction? I've lived in Europe for 11 years and have never once heard of any country in Europe where dogs are eaten. Okay, the French it horse meat. Dogs, no. In any French restaurant you are likely to find well behaved dogs asleep under the table while their owners eat - they are not "on the menu", figuratively you could say they are under the menu though The Norwegians are partial to eating some strange things, cheese with jam, rotten fish - but dogs - never. I'm at a loss to think of one country in Europe where dogs are eaten. Here in the UK using dogs as a food source - for people or animals - is illegal and I expect the same is true in the US. Not only that, but the idea that anyone would eat dog or give other animals dog meat is so repugnant in this culture that it hardly has to be illegal.

I expect anywhere in the Western World there are small pockets of expats that do eat dog because in their country of origin it is acceptable. Where there is a market, regardless of whether it is legal or illegal, I am sure there is a way to find a supply. In China eating dog meat is culturally acceptable, there are restaurants that specialize in nothing but dog meat. The dogs do not come from the US - they come from China. Dogs are raised the same way chickens or pigs are raised, it's not a hidden industry, it's legal. Dogs are not imported in small lots from the US to get rid of excess pet shop animals or from puppy mills to China. And elsewhere in Asia where eating dog is part of the culture and the cost structure is the similar - why would there be any need to import dogs from the US or elsewhere?

We have to be honest with ourselves, IMO. If you care about dogs at all you care about all dogs. I loved my pet shop/puppy mill dog and my dog from a backyard breeder as much as I loved (and love) my dogs from responsible breeders. No difference in how I feel about them. But "rescue" another dog from a pet shop by choosing to buy there rather than from a responsible breeder? Not me. Because as much as that puppy in the pet shop window tugs at my heart I know that buying it only opens the door for another to takes its place. Lucky the puppy I buy, not so lucky perhaps are the others that I made way for in puppy mills.

[bradl]

Do you like Cairn Terriers? I do. What is a Cairn Terrier? In twenty or fifty years will there still be a Cairn Terrier? Will we recognize it as one?

If I can dare to stray away from the question of a whether a dog from a pet shop is rescued or not, the original question was about registries. The trail led from who uses these registries, and perhaps why. It's practically a hobby to find fault with the AKC and everyone has a favorite axe to grind with them, but for better or worse, as a person who loves the Cairn Terrier as a breed, not just a few individual dogs, what am I to think about these other registries? Are they helping or hurting in preserving and protecting the breed? Some registries have an 'activity' focus and provide extra avenues for dog-handler bonding. Yay for them. Some seem to exist more for some murkier purpose. The fact that commercial breeders favor these alternative registries worries me, leaving aside for the moment the fact that they are an increasingly prominent source of pet shop puppies which are in turn the primary driver of the need for rescue in the first place. So what do we tend to get from these registries? Sound Cairn Terriers of excellent breed type?

Even within a carefully managed breeding program, there will be diversity in phenotype. All Cairns are not cookie-cutter replicas of each other. At the center of breed recognition is that thing called "breed type." Even within what most Cairn folk would agree are dogs with good type, there is room for diversity. The debate rages eternal on whether it's a Good Thing or a Bad Thing that there are "big 'uns and little 'uns." But these debates always turn around the breed standard and its application. You don't hear much discussion advocating that Scottie ears, round eyes, light eyes, soft coats, snipey muzzles, ferrety feet, low tailsets, and so on are all "just as correct" - all are considered undesirable and breeders work to eliminate them. These same traits seem to be a hallmark of many of these commercially bred dogs.

Just as with long, strong lines from established breeders you can usually see in the preponderance of their dogs the imprint of its ancestors and the expression of a certain 'style' that can still exist within the larger context of 'breed type' - you can also see the stamp of mediocrity of casual and commercial breeding. One of our local members most active in rescue can pretty much tell you on sight where one these pet shop dogs (or crappy regional commercial breeders) probably originated. Unfortunately the 'style' these dogs display leave them looking "cairnish" rather than being good representatives of the ideal. Sure, they're genetically purebred (usually). Please hear me on this: that does not mean these dogs are any less loving and worthy companions than any other dog. But if the people breeding dogs that are drifting so far away from sound and solid breed type tend to preferentially prefer alternative registries, my view of those registries becomes correspondingly dim.

[pkcrossley]

i don't have anything more to say about this. anybody can have a point of view. but facts are also facts. independent pet stores, at least in the midwest and in this part of the country, certainly do sell to dog brokers (and in some cases the dog broker's identities are masked by apparently legitimate buyers). in this part of the country, pet chains and independent stores are scrupulous about obeying the laws, and are not vulnerable to being pressured by people who insist on taking the puppies for little or nothing. independent pet stores do not all destroy unsold puppies (though a lot of them do, which is part of my point). puppy mills do not sell exclusively to pet stores and chains. as for whether any "reputable" breeder would allow a small pet shop to display weaned puppies (not on consignment, but on display) --well, visit the breeders and decide whether they pass muster or not.

the facts are complex and the judgments, to me, must be complex also. i don't relate to dogma on this.

yes, i do care about cairn terriers. if i wanted the best chance at long-lived, healthy dogs with high intelligence, i would get cross-breeds or outright mutts. that is basic genetic good sense. but i admire cairn traits and i feel for their situation, being bred to have abilities and attitudes that have comparatively little relevance in the present world and can try the patience of uninformed owners. i want cairns to be helped wherever you find them.

[Greg P]

I'm seriously thinking that my next dog (when I finally engage) will be a rescue Cairn.

Everyone deserves a second chance!

Jerry,(39Tudor) Yes. Cairns are amazingly resilient. Thank you for being open to an rescue or a re-home.

Brad,

You did a very nice job summarizing why I referred to the alternate breed registries as "hideous". At least the AKC give the breeder a goal to shoot for with a "standard". Breed Clubs such as the Cairn Terrier Club of America, who are sanctioned by the AKC have a breeder code of ethics. If regional clubs want to become sanctioned by the AKC, they must go through a series of rigorous exercises in holding events and proving proficiency within the club community. (By the way, this forum is a part of the Cairn Terrier Club of America website).

As I see it, breed "registries" like the "APRI" (the topic starter) were created to give the consumer the illusion of legitimacy. As I said in an earlier post, people outside the dog world do not necessarily understand "AKC", or "APRI" or any other breed registry. The consumers want to justify paying big money for an animal and they often do it by wanting a "purebred" animal, or a sometimes a "designer" breed (a cross between two or more breeds). In exchange for paying the higher costs for an animal, the consumer should expect that the animal is a good representation of the breed AND should be expected to be free of health defects. If the dog proves to have a health defect, then the consumer should be given an option to be able to return the dog to the breeder. It appears to me that the "APRI" is in existence to benefit wholesale breeders and their purchasing outlets.

From the APRI website:

Restrict the Pet Industry? How?

"The idea of restricting the pet trade through registry services is not new, and most breed clubs, major kennel clubs, and cattery organizations discourage or prohibit selling animals wholesale to distributors or retailers. Some simply deny registration of any dog or cat sold through a pet store even if that pet carries registration papers. While most currently grudgingly accept for registration the animals sold through pet stores, the possibility of that changing is very real and always present. Also, other proposals that would severely limit the supply of purebred puppies and kittens available to the pet-loving public are constantly being made by and to various registry services to restrict the breeding and registration of cats and dogs. If these proposals had become policy before APRI's inception, there would have been no time to organize an effective, reputable alternative registration service. The industry needed it's own registry service well established before a catastrophe, and, fortunately it has achieved this with America's Pet Registry."

Nowhere in their website do they have any kind of standard (goal to breed to) for any breed, including cairn terriers. And by the way, their website shows that the most people who has ever looked at it at the same time was .........38!

We love our cairns and we hang around others who share our interests. Cairn terriers gain more popularity with the public every day. That being said, I'm glad they are not considered one of the most popular breeds. For me, restriction is positive. I am happy that the CTCA does restrict and will not allow (through the code of ethics) breeders to wholesale animals. When wholesale breeding occurs, there is no emphasis on breeding goals. The emphasis is only production.

Again, I appreciate everyone who loves the breed. I am especially grateful to people who do elect to give a cairn a second chance by rescuing or re-homing. Every one's ownership goals are not the same. But as Brad L mentioned, there are serious consequences to unscroupulous breeding practices.

[Cairnmania]

yes, i do care about cairn terriers. if i wanted the best chance at long-lived, healthy dogs with high intelligence, i would get cross-breeds or outright mutts. that is basic genetic good sense. but i admire cairn traits and i feel for their situation, being bred to have abilities and attitudes that have comparatively little relevance in the present world and can try the patience of uninformed owners. i want cairns to be helped wherever you find them.

Genetic sense means only animals that have no known genetic problems are bred together. And further, that only animals that are stucturally compatible are bred together - otherwise you can end up with puppies that have leg bones too short/fine to support their bodies, and similar types of things that can cause real problems. The pure science of it has nothing to do with whether an animal is pure bred, cross bred or a mutt.

The health aspect is one of the reasons I first chose Cairn Terriers and also chose to buy from a responsible breeder and member of the CTCA. I wanted as much assurance as possible that my puppy was healthy and would grow up to be a healthy adult with no genetic problems due to careless breeding. First, Cairns are a healthy breed. Every CTCA Cairn breeder I've known will not breed a dog that has any health problems. And given there is no guarantee about anything in dog breeding - if two healthy animals produce a litter in which even one of the puppies has a problem that could be genetic - those two are never bred together again. And given the dog world is a small one; even if "dad" lives hundreds of miles away from mom the word still gets out that there is a potential problem. If a pup in dad's next litter has a puppy with the same problem -- that's the end of the line for dad as a father of new litters. Same is true for mom - if she produces puppies with problems, she is neutered.

I know lots of people knock the world of dog showing, but for me - even when I moved to the U.K. - my two U.K. bred Cairns come from active show homes. The reason is simple - I knew they would be breeders that cared not only that their puppies looked like Cairns - but also that they were part of that small world where "everyone knows everyone" - and it acts as sort of a regulatory body to reinforce that in looks and in health only dogs and bitches that produce healthy pups are used. (The breeders also belong to the equivalent of the CTCA in the UK too.)

Unfortunately, the belief that pure bred dogs are unhealthier than cross breeds or mutts stems from the fact the largest number of pure breds (and now "designer" cross breeds) come from puppy mills and backyard breeders. Most people are unwilling to wait for months or sometimes even years to get a puppy of a breed they are determined to have from an ethical breeder who breeds for health as well as breed type. Hence, "most" purebred dogs are unhealthier - but it's not the breed, it's the breeder that makes the difference.

Stacey

[Cairnmania]

Do you like Cairn Terriers? I do.

Yes, but I don't think I could eat a whole one

The specific registery isn't as important as are the people that use it, IMO. There are plenty of AKC registered dogs that look very little like their breed standard; so much so that there parenthood is questionable. At the end of the day every registery is based on an honor system. The same for the rare breed registery (can't remember the name, UKC?) but I believe you may have posted about this earlier or provided a link), which also keep records, runs confirmation events, and is very much managed like the AKC for breeds that are not accepted by the AKC. In fact, I believe some breeds start out on the rare breed registery and then move over to the AKC.

The registries that are nothing more than pieces of paper with a fancy logo are worthless, except to the pet shops or breeders who can hoodwink buyers into paying more for a puppy.

... I bought my AKC registered Yorkie in a pet store - all nineteen pounds she grew up to be, with floppy ears, and numerous minor faults. (Nuts.. this has started me crying, I miss every pound of her terribly.) When I finally got her papers back from the AKC - I only realized years later that the pup that I bought in Connecticut - and whose parents registered owners were in Kansas - meant she was from a puppy mill.

So I always have to go back to - yes, buy an AKC puppy - but remember the registery is much less important than the breeder.