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Well, finally got everything figure out with val, he was born on July 23 of this year, the four month old!

We got him from a store, a good place, who said they didnt use puppy mills for their puppys, its a local place (the store).

We got papers for him, to register with the America's Pet Registry Inc. insted of akc, which is too bad, cuse we do know for a fact hes a pure breed :thumbsup:

The one question is, is there much of a differnce between the two? I know about the DNA and they prove your dog is scientifically proven to be what they are.

The guy at the store said there isnt much of a differnce between the two excpet the names (and cost) but i've been reading some (most biaised) website saying that they are just a front for bad breeders to register and have improper breeding practices.

It bothers me a little that we might have gotten a little lied to about him, i still love him though.

how many others have a APRI or AKC registrations?

Im still reseraching the breeder and where the dogs came from. and trying to find our exactly what place they came from.

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A store that sells puppys but telling you they are from good breeders??? Sorry to be so blunt but he is not telling you the truth. My first Cairn Missy was from a pet store her papers were ACA not AKC. I do not think that a good breeder would sell to a pet store but again who knows. I like you loved Missy with all my heart but she was puppy mill, AKC or ACA or whatever didn't matter to me but Missy had many many illness's but thankfully lived a good life to age 17 puppy mill and all. I hope maybe the store you bought from is telling you the truth, you just dont know and now its too late so the main think is you have a darling Cairn to love. Good luck and I hope you can get some answers, I dont know what APRI is either, I never knew what Missy stated she was ACA so if anyone knows about ACA what actually is it maybe a back yard breeders code :twisted: Do you know what state he came from?

My Missy was ACA, also from a pet store and she was solid black, beautiful full blooded 100% Cairn.

Kramer who is now 3 was from a well known breeder of Cairns AKC and is a loveable guy. Either way there with us to love'em!

Edited by Kramersmom

Rhonda,Kramer & Angel Missy "Blessed is the person who has earned the love of an old dog". "It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are" Missy Rainbow Bridge Memorial

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yea, the puppys are really good, im really upset about it. America's Pet Registry Inc, is the full thing. As long as we know hes a purebread is good, becuse we paid (probaly too much) for him. for not be AKC. Its a mistake, and damn hes a cute pup so i guess its ok. Its really offical and everything so thats good. Its also listed on the AKC site in the number one spot for registrys they Wont accept to bring your dog to AKC. Its a mistake we wont make again though. From what i found this Pretty Pennys dog kennel is one that barley meets minimum requirements of state laws. Amy says look at it this way, you saved him form not only a pet store, but a Horrible puppy farm. So that makes me feel a bit better.

Im ok with at least having some sort of papers, so we can brag that we have a purebread and not a mutt.

Does anyone know where you can find registered breeders or if there are any government things that people breeding dogs like that have to be registered? i have the breeders name. and the parents names and numbers for the APRI.

I know we got screwed and lied to about stuff. Its a small enough place where they shouldnt have to buy from a puppy mill.

All i can say is Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, im an idiot.

Edit: Kramersmom-ACA American Canine Association, Inc

Pretty sure that he was born here in wisconsin, i could imagine them getting him from outside the state, just to costly. Pretty Pennys (or Satans Kennels as i am now calling them) is in plymoth, wi.

And at least we know hes 100% too! gotta love em!

Edited by andrewnamy
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Note that the sponsor of this board, the Cairn Terrier Club of America, is a member club of the AKC, and has the following point in its code of ethics for members.

  • To avoid from engaging in wholesaling, mass production, or distribution of Cairn Terriers and from selling breeding stock to pet dealers, catalog houses or other commercial sources of distribution. To avoid supplying Cairn Terriers for raffles, lotteries or prize-giving contests. To avoid and admonish these and any similar activities that would belittle or trivialize the breed or place profit before home-based quality care and breeding.

So you won't find cairns from any responsible member of the national breed club at a pet store. That is not to say you won't find any AKC registered or registerable pups there, but you won't find any from CTCA members. The AKC still provides registration services to volume breeders who can maintain their kennels in minimal conditions and keep proper breeding records, the CTCA policies attempt to go a little further than that.

(For more on the CTCA code of ethics, go to http://www.cairnterrier.org/ethics

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we found out more about him actually. We know hes not from a puppy mill(thank god!) But is most likly from a farm. The store we got him from buys from alot of farms, mostly Amish, my grandpa gets his dogs from the amish. So we know that hes not from a mill.

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1) I'll be darned if I can see the difference between a "puppy mill" and a "puppy farm".

2) Until the recent appearance of many "breeder friendly" dog registries there was probably no single identifiable group more closely identified with puppy mills than the Amish.


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"1) I'll be darned if I can see the difference between a "puppy mill" and a "puppy farm". "

I should have been more specific, i was running late for something last night and needed to leave.

When i said from a farm, i ment, not a puppy farm but a farm farm. moo moo cows chickens and pigs. Wisconsin is notorious for those things. :P

There arent any puppy mills where he came from.

Hes a good pup, and everythings good.

Also upon future reasearching, valentine came from columbia county, which doesnt seem to have any puppy mills i can find (not saying theres none) but i know Clark County is notorius for puppy mills.

Edited by andrewnamy
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Don't get too caught up in all this discussion of AKC vs APRI. If you feel you were deceived by the people you bought Val from, chalk it up to experience. You now know a lot more about buying a dog than you did before. The important thing is you found a dog that you love and enjoy, and you are giving him a good home. If you ever decide to get another Cairn, you now know to check thoroughly for a reputable breeder. Remember, "Fool me once---------"


Jim, Connie, Bailey & Sophie


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yay, exctly what i was saying before :santa2: i love him and hes a great dog. You cant always rely on people being honest.

Merry christmas!

Edited by andrewnamy
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Regrettably, the Amish are well known for running puppy mills :-(

My dearly departed Moxie was a pet shop, puppy mill dog (every pet store claims their dogs do not come from puppy mills). She died over four years ago and to this day I miss her terribly - and get tears in my eyes thinking about it. She was about as far away from the breed standard as you can get - even though she was registered AKC. She was the most wonderful dog that ever lived and my life was made richer by every moment we shared.

So as you say - love your dog, but don't buy from a pet store again.

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my family is partly amish and i'm ashamed to say, yes, the amish have been running puppy mills for decades though nobody i know was ever involved in it). it is a real shame. puppy mills can be and increasingly are regulated and often shut down by local law. if your state doesn't have such laws, you can lobby for it. colonel potter's cairn rescue network is one of the most magnificent organizations rescuing cairns, the overwhelming majority of them puppy mill products or rescued breeding stock. i support them as much as they can, and regard their work as critical.

it is almost true, but not quite true, that all dogs seen in pet shops are puppy mill products, "papers" or no. a few small shops in my region sell puppies on behalf of legitimate breeders. in other areas of the country where breeders can be hard to find, or are located for their own reasons in very remote locations, it occasionally happens that breeders place their dogs with trusted pet shops for sale. these puppies are not bought by the pet shops (and the shops have no investment in them other than a percentage of the ultimate sale), they are housed and displayed by the pet shops, and customers ultimately buy them from the breeders. this is not a common arrangement, and you will not find it in large chain stores. from the prospective owner's point of view it is not ideal --puppies are probably better socialized when they have stayed with their mothers until they go to their new homes. but for many people a pet shop is the practical way to find a puppy.

i do not agree with the view often expressed that the only way to deal with puppy mills is to boycott, shun, abandon, or euthanize all the puppy mill puppies and dogs currently in pet shops. it is certainly in a prospective owner's interest to buy directly from a breeder (though some breeders considered legitimate don't really look all that great once you see the way they operate). however, i am inclined to also think in the interest of the dogs. what is in the interest of the dogs is to shut the puppy mills down at the source, which can be done through the law, and to buy, adopt or otherwise free the dogs in the shops. i do not think it is humane to insist that dogs must never be bought from shops.

my present cairn came from a shop, he was a doggy in the window, the first pet shop purchase i had ever made, as my previous three dogs, including one cairn, all came from breeders. i knew about all the conventional wisdom against buying in the shop. he had been in the shop for months, was depressed, untrained, and was too big to compete with the "cuter" dogs. i bought him (at a price much higher than any breeder would have demanded) because he was there, i was there, and i knew he was in trouble. i could have left him there to his fate, and not a single puppy mill anywhere would have closed. in fact, i could have organized everybody in the shop, or in my town, to never buy a pet shop dog, and not one puppy mill anywhere would have closed. puppy mills and pet store chains have already figured unsellable dogs into their cost of doing business. if people don't buy them as pets, they can be sold to restaurants around the world, to the underground of dog fighting, and other uses. the place to close puppy mills is at the source. many are already in violation of the law, and others can be made illegal through zoning, animal health and sanitation laws.

i was lucky, and many people who spring dogs from pet shop crises are lucky. my dog is brilliant, kind, and in his whole life of seven years so far has had only one spate of clinical illness, from which he recovered rapidly. his health record does not look any different from an exceptionally healthy dog from a breeder. when i got my dog, he had all the problems of a cairn nearing a year old, and many others produced by his confinement and delayed development. we worked on them all, and by age four at the latest (probably a bit earlier), he was on his way to being the amazing gentleman he is today.

i don't advocate buying dogs from pet shops; it is certainly true that if the commercial system and the culture of the country were changed, animals would not be mass produced or mass sold, and that would be a better world. but here we are. a dog in a pet shop is a dog in trouble. some people are in a position and feel a compulsion to help a dog in trouble. i cannot be against that.

everybody has a different approach to pet ownership. some people plan long and carefully to acquire the perfect pet. some people have no particular plan until they see a dog or cat in trouble. some people who acquire dogs from pounds or pet shops (all the same, since the puppy mill products are likely to go from the pet shop to the pound eventually) have luck, like me, with the dog's health, and some have bad luck. some people who buy from breeder's have good luck and some have poor luck with the dog's health. your chances, i believe, for being an owner with fewer problems are better if you buy from a breeder and worse if you get your dog somewhere else. but unless your life is on the knife edge, more compared to fewer problems with your dog is not something that is going to determine much of your life quality. as for the ultimate personality and capabilities of the dog: a tiny, tiny number of truly extreme problems are genetic, and can occur in any dog. the rest is all nurture. cairns are difficult to raise, no matter where you get them. they will be a challenge, and a reward, no matter where you get them.

so my bottom line is: if would be good if there were no live animal sales in pet shops. it would be good if there were no caged, homeless or abused animals at all. it would also be good if viable but imperfect puppies were never culled. if you want to assure yourself of the best chance of having minimal problems with your dog, get your dog from a breeder. but if you are moved to help a dog in trouble, do it. that might mean adopting an orphan, it might mean ransoming a pet shop inmate. there are no absolute rules, except: support pet rescue, and work through the laws to shut down puppy mills.

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AMEN! I agree to just love and enjoy your Cairn. I said this many times that my first Cairn, Missy, we bought 2 weeks before our wedding was from a pet store. Puppy mill? yes... sick with lots of things? yes... many surgerys for knee's and genetic things? yes.... Was she loved? Yes..... would I do it over again for her? Yes... why? because I saved her from death row. Missy was work in progess from day 1, being puppy mill she had a different behavior than most Cairns but I promised I would love her to the end, anyone else would of put her down way before her time. Missy passed away at age 17 and I miss her so much. Yes, we need to shut down puppy mill ,back yard breeders but when people buy a pet from a pet store or like there giving that poor animal a good chance in life. Do I support it? No but I'm thankful at least someone is buying it for a house pet/family member and not a breeding machine.

Enjoy your Cairn, Merry Cairn Christmas

Rhonda,Kramer & Angel Missy "Blessed is the person who has earned the love of an old dog". "It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are" Missy Rainbow Bridge Memorial

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The hard truth is that the laws of supply and demand apply to puppy mills and pet shops. So as appealing as it is to think that we're "saving" a puppy by purchasing it from a pet store the truth is that neither pet store owner nor the puppy mill care why a puppy is purchased. Liscensing agencies for puppy mills care only that the facility complies with local regulations and that the dogs (like any animal) are kept in suitable conditions for animals - clean, access to food and water, and routine medical care. All authorities can do is shut down the worst when they became known - and that is a rarity - in the U.S. and here in the UK as well. Liscensing authorities do not care in the least about the quality of the puppies and what type of genetic soup goes into them. All puppy mills and pet stores care about is that there is demand for what they can supply. So you can fight for better conditions in puppy mills and that's a good thing to do, but IMO its not enough.

I learned the hard way. I knew nothing about dogs when I got my first two. The first was a German Shepherd I bought from a backyard breeder. No health checks of any kind and as a result she was born with severe hip dysplasia. She had lots of "cosmetic" faults I learned later - but nothing compared to the pain she endured all her life from careless breeding. My next dog was from a pet shop. Purchased two days before Christmas in a weak moment after searching for three weeks for "Barbie's Dream House" - not just any house, it had to be a specific Town House! The pet shop was located next to the last toy store I visited and I stupidly went in to look at puppies to cheer myself up. (Now, I will not set foot in a pet store that sells puppies because it does the opposite of cheering me up.) That cute puppy grew up with luxating patella and endured two ripped cruciate ligaments as a result. I did not mind she was nearly 3x the size called for by the breed standard and had a host of cosmetic flaws. I was thankful she was as a healthy as she was most of her life.

It is sadly not the case that only a tiny portion of serious health problems are genetic, although it may be the case that the majority of health problems are not (yet) proven to be genetic. For example, no reputable breeder would breed a dog with severe allergies to another with severe allergies. Or a dog with luxating patella to another dog with luxating patella. Neither conditions are proven to be genetic - but no reputable breeder would take the risk because they know the likelyhood is that a higher percentage of dogs in a litter would end up with those same conditions.

My dogs' vet happens to be a specialist veterinary opthamologist. Most of his eye-related practice used to be testing prospective parents for breed-specific eye problems and the same for litters of puppies (when that's possible). And of course he did surgery as well because of genetic problems, mostly from puppy mill dogs. Now he said that most of his time is spent doing eye surgery to correct problems because of the popularity of all those cute "designer breeds" that are pumped out by backyard breeders like cash crops. None of them do genetic testing any more than a puppy mill would spend a dime testing their "stock."

I'm ranting now ... but the only way to stop puppy mills and careless breeding is to end the demand for what they produce.

Edited by Cairnmania
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Andrewnamy, your pup sounds like a sweetie. I learned a lot about this topic today. Had NO idea about the Amish connection with puppy mills, for instance.

Just my one or two cents worth, becuz both mine are rescues. I think they are purebred Cairns and Westies, but who knows? I love 'em lots.

Merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah to everyone!


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In 2006, our cairn club rescued 3 puppies from a notorious puppy store in Bellevue, WA. These puppies had been there for 5 months, were malnourished and had lost spirit. This store was shut down about 6 months later to scandal complete with local TV coverage. The puppies were all placed into re-homes all rebounded.

A pet store purchase is an emotional purchase, which can range from saving the animals, to impulse decisions and instant gratification. Almost everyone, however who purchases from a pet store (at least the first time) doesn't really understand the hazards. The best puppy purchases are well thought out purchases. It's not unusual to have to wait until a litter is whelped, then continue to wait until they reach the age of 12 weeks. The wait can be agonizing, but the puppies who go to well planed environments normally thrive (as does their owners).

I salute anyone that chooses to re-home a rescue. Many rescues come from outstanding environments where their owners could no longer care for them. Some come from despicable conditions. Also, it's important to note that many cairns that are purchased from pet store cairns are well loved and have good lives.

We need to continue the discussion and debate so more and more people learn about the hazards of puppy mills and pet stores. Just remember the old adage, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Andrewnamy, you probably feel ganged up for starting this post, but it's a good post. Thank you. You guys will be great cairn owners. If you choose to get another one, you'll have more knowledge and ideas on how to do it. In the meantime, just love and care for your cairn.

Greg and Val Perry

Home of Kula RN CGC, Am. Can. Int'l. CH Cairngorm Coffee Tea or Me RA ME EE2/Can. SE NAJ NAS CGC (Kona), CH Clanmarr's Steele Princess (Hattie) and CH Scotchbroom Thistle The Patriot SE (Sully) Visit: CroftersDream.com

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By the way, you can "register" your dog with the AKC with an Indefinate Listing Priveldge (ILP). From the AKC:

What AKC events may an ILP dog Participate in?

The Indefinite Listing Privilege Program (ILP) is designed to allow dogs to participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. The AKC Events that an ILP dog can participate in are:

Agility Trials (All Breeds)

Earthdog Trials (Small Terriers and Dachshunds)

Herding Tests and Trials ( Herding Breeds, Rottweilers and Samoyeds)

Hunt Tests (Most Sporting Breeds and Standard Poodles)

Junior Showmanship (All Breeds)

Lure Coursing (Sighthounds)

Obedience Trials (All Breeds)

Rally Trials (All Breeds)

Tracking Tests (All Breeds)

Once enrolled in the ILP program, entering AKC events is as easy as with a registrable dog. The only difference is that instead of an AKC registration number, you would list the dog's ILP number on the Entry form.

To learn more about an AKC ILP, http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm

Greg and Val Perry

Home of Kula RN CGC, Am. Can. Int'l. CH Cairngorm Coffee Tea or Me RA ME EE2/Can. SE NAJ NAS CGC (Kona), CH Clanmarr's Steele Princess (Hattie) and CH Scotchbroom Thistle The Patriot SE (Sully) Visit: CroftersDream.com

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AKC recently updated and renamed the ILP program. Introducing, the PAL program.

"We currently enroll over 3,000 dogs per year in the ILP/PAL program. It is our hope that we can expand this number and the overall appeal of the program by offering added benefits and renaming the program with this more creative and friendly acronym," said Assistant Vice President of Customer Service, Mari Beth O'Neill. "Welcoming more ILP/PAL dogs to the world of AKC events and privileges can only benefit both dogs and owners by providing educational resources and also exposing them to the joys of competing with your dog."

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CRCTC: Columbia River Cairn Terrier Club 



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I appreciate Greg's comments, and thoroughly agree that more discussion is helpful to many. However, I do not agree that "Almost everyone, however who purchases from a pet store (at least the first time) doesn't really understand the hazards." I think that was true at one time, but publicity over the abuses of both puppy mills and pet stores has been everywhere. There are still many --I would agree a majority-- who don't really get it, and that is a danger both the prospective owner and to the dog. But an increasing number of people --really not rare-- do understand and weigh the benefits to the dog as well as to themselves before buying. I know five people I can name off the top of my head who both are active against puppy mills and have bought store puppies knowing what the dogs' probable backgrounds were. Where else are these dogs going to go, into the air? People who buy these dogs knowing their backgrounds are determined in their intentions the same way rescue owners are. They are not going to give up these dogs at the first sign of trouble.

I completely agree that education of the public is essential. People who buy store puppies should indeed approach the project as if they were rescuing any other troubled dog (except that they will pay a high ransom). People who think they are getting happy, well-nurtured instant pets are going to be disappointed, and that is very dangerous for the dog.

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Hello everyone.

I thought I would just add the following incident that occurred this afternoon.

My daughter calls me and wanted to know how much I paid for Mac when I bought him.

She said she found a female Westie and it is so cute and she wants to buy it.

First question out of Dad's mouth.... How Much? $900.

Second question.... Where? Local Big Box Pet Store.

Final question...... Is she AKC registered? No, APRI.

As much as I hated to tell her, based on this topic alone, she needs to keep looking and try to buy from a local breeder.

The pet store sales person assured her that they do not buy from "Puppy Mills". Must be in the training manual.

Thanks so much for all the information this site contains.

Even though Mac is gone, I still check in every now and then just to enjoy the pictures of your dogs and learn more about Cairns.

On another personal note, my wife saw me looking at the forums a few nights ago and asked me if I got another Cairn what I would name it. I told her I'm still not quite ready to make that leap yet. As much as I want another dog, I'm just not ready to get back into the game. "Sir, Maverick won't engage"

Best wishes to all of you this holiday season and thanks for sharing your pets with me.


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I've found this thread quite enlightening and interesting, thanks to all of you who have contributed. I must say, on the topic of public education, until I joined this forum, I didn't know enough. I knew that the mall dog store (which has thankfully been left in the past everywhere I've lived recently) and the big box pet stores were puppy mill customers. However, I would not have known that the dogs at the small independent dog supply stores - and by this I mean the sort of stores you need to patronize to buy top shelf foods like eagle pack, canidae or solid gold - were also selling puppy mill dogs. I also was unaware of all the problems with back-yard breeding. My family had gotten dogs from two sources ever in my life - rescues/pounds and newspaper ads. Many people have no idea there are other sources. I think the internet has slowly been bringing about such a significant change in just allowing people looking for a pet to get in contact with a quality breeder who may be 100 miles away that would have never happened 10 years ago. I educated myself a bit before buying - I knew that I should be looking for an AKC registered puppy, I should meet the breeder, dam and sire, and inspect the puppies in person. I knew that the breeder should ask me questions about the environment I was taking the puppy into, and she did. We even discussed temperment as suited to my lifestyle, and she recommended a little boy in the litter who was the "mellowest puppy she'd ever seen". Two years later, my dog is a delight. He is so easy going and mellow - she was right on. He is healthy and fairly consistent with breed standard. Would I buy from her again in the future? No way. I think I did get lucky, but I wouldn't take the gamble again.

Oh...2 more cents... it is interesting to hear about the Amish. I grew up in central PA, and my first purebred dog as a kid was a Westie that came from a Mennonite farm. She had a host of health problems - allergies to EVERYTHING including most foods and even grass. As an adult, I found out that one day that my mom visited, one of the puppies in the pen where they kept them had expired, presumably from the heat or dehydration. They appeared to be a wonderfully kind family and bred only Westies, but what deplorable conditions! I was only there once, and I was 11 or 12, but think the puppies were kept in the same type of enclosures as one would keep chickens. It was sad enough that 20 years later, I remember just wanting to take my new puppy out of there so she'd have freedom.

Thanks to all of you who are working to educate the public about dog breeding practices. If you continue to be vocal and proactive, it seems inevitable that the general public will eventually get the full message.

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Here's what I think. After that first purchase is made (and that purchase is always emotional), THEN the new dog owner starts to plug in to the world of dogs. Just like andrewnamy's story and jodi0553 experience, the knowledge often comes after the fact. Even when a person has heard of the puppy mill problem, if they go into a store and the salesperson spins a story that they're "farm raised" or "locally raised" or "not puppy mill", they instantly want to believe the salesperson. Hideously, they throw out worthless "registries" to insure the purchase is a "purebred".

While granted there are some who buy from the pet store to "rescue" the puppy, I believe the majority buy on emotional impulse.

Information is seeping out there. Today on the morning news there was an article about smuggled foreign bred puppies making their way into the US. I've seen information on cable TV and news magazine spots on puppy mills. There is information all over the Internet. It is slowly seeping into the public's consciousness. But the fact remains, when people get "puppy fever", they often make poor choices....even with background knowledge.

This practice will continue until it becomes unprofitable for the puppy mill, or the store that sells them. Some of the major big box pet stores no longer sell puppies. The quality local independents are starting to get the message. If every knowledgeable dog person boycotted any store (for any product) that sells puppies, they would be forced to quit. As for the "puppy parlors", concerned dog lovers should monitor their stock. That's how a Bellevue, WA puppy store got closed down. I'm not a person in favor of over regulating anything, but for goodness sake, basic cleanliness and health standards should be strictly enforced by the animal cops and local politicians need to embrace regulation to ensure humane treatment of the breeding stock and puppies.

The biggest problem, however, is puppy fever. When people get it, they want instant gratification and unfortunately the animal often pays the price. Because of this post, 39Tudor was able to do an intervention.....and I'll bet it was a close call.

Greg and Val Perry

Home of Kula RN CGC, Am. Can. Int'l. CH Cairngorm Coffee Tea or Me RA ME EE2/Can. SE NAJ NAS CGC (Kona), CH Clanmarr's Steele Princess (Hattie) and CH Scotchbroom Thistle The Patriot SE (Sully) Visit: CroftersDream.com

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i'm completely in agreement that "puppy fever" is destructive. i bought my store puppy long after he was past the stage to inspire any puppy fever, and only after i knew that he was not longer a candidate for any kind of early purchase, and after i had observed him decline in spirit for weeks, probably months. but unless i missed something, nobody is encouraging people to raise demand for store puppies. i'm certainly not encouraging people to rush into shops demanding puppies. i am, however, opposed to the myth that refusing to buy store puppies under any circumstances actually decreases demand for the products of puppy mills. there is a kernal of truth in the fact that a shop owner whose puppies aren't flying off the shelves (as it were) will not be ordering as many puppies as before. unsold puppies are already built into the calculations of store owners but nobody renews the same volume of orders for goods that don't sell. so far so good.

but history shows that puppy mill owners who find they don't sell as many puppies to pet shops as before have plenty of other outlets for their products. pet shops put a huge mark-up on their puppies. the real profit to the puppy mill of selling puppies as prospective pets is not much greater than selling puppies as other kinds of products, some legal and some not. since most puppy mills already operate on the fringes of legality, seeking less than legal outlets for their products has not proved to be very difficult for them. in fact, demand is increasing in some quarters of the world that i know well for puppy meat. and believe it or not, the breed of the puppy matters in some markets. mutt meat doesn't bring as high a price as shih-tzu meat or GSD meat. terriers, as you can imagine, are very much in demand for brutal and extremely illegal sports that nevertheless are hugely profitable for all involved.

puppy mills have to be shut down at their source. as for puppies already born, and already in the shops, i see no logical argument for refusing to condone their purchase under any circumstances. frivolous purchases, not good (same as frivolous adoptions). to argue that shunning all dogs currently in shops will shut down puppy mills, you have to believe that puppies are only bred for pet shops, which is not true. all the buyers remorse stories are very instructive for people who are likely to risk their own money and some little dog's well-being on fantasies of purchasing the perfect pet out of a store cage. i hope readers will read and learn from those stories. but absolute insistence that the evil of puppy mills is caused exclusively and inevitably by every purchase of a pet from a shop is not logical or factual.

i look forward to the day when puppy mills are closed and puppies are never purchased from pet shop owners. i look forward to the day when eating dog meat is illegal, when dog meat can no longer be an ingredient in dog and cat food, when dog fighting is actually eradicated instead of being given a pass.i look forward to a day when nobody can profit from supplying puppies and dogs to industrial laboratories testing cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, and surgical techniques. i also look forward to a day when dogs will no longer be inbred, imperfect pups culled, or "breeds" regarded as so precious that artificial selection continues to produce and reproduce anatomical features and genetic vulnerabilities that bring discomfort and often misery to dogs. that isn't the world we are living in yet.

Edited by pkcrossley
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You have shed good insight on the puppy mill problem.

Where the pet or puppy store gets hurt financially is to refuse to buy any of the ancillary goods (food, leashes, sundries, any other pet products, etc) from them.....nothing...nada. That's where they'll feel it. I agree, the puppies somehow need to find their way into a home.

BTW, Here's a quick primer on how to buy a puppy that needs rescue. These are the puppies that have been passed over. In the case of the 3 cairns that we purchased, they were extremely malnourished and had lost spirit. Here's how they were purchased:

Their original price in the store was $900.

They had been progressively been marked down to $400 ea. They were no longer cute.

$100 each were offered for them. The owner of course indignantly refused. He was told rather matter of factly that all 3 go for $300 or we're coming back with an animal control officer and a news crew. The 3 puppies were purchased for $300 and were re-homed. We had them vet checked. They were barely one grade above the point where the vet could start an action with animal control. All expenses were recouped by adoption fees.

The puppies had been in the pet store for over 4 months of their lives. Store records showed that they came from Idaho and that they came to the pet store at 7 weeks. When we got custody of them, they were so developmentally retarded that they didn't know how to climb a simple step. Their paws had never touched grass, dirt, etc.

My son and his wife adopted one of them (Augie). Now Augie is a happy fellow. He gets himself in trouble at times with other dogs (low social skills), but he's learning. He has his ILP. We hope to one day to get an earthdog title on him. (Pic of Kevin and Augie attached)

This store eventually had so many complaints that it was forced to close (and it did have broad news coverage when it closed).


Edited by Greg P

Greg and Val Perry

Home of Kula RN CGC, Am. Can. Int'l. CH Cairngorm Coffee Tea or Me RA ME EE2/Can. SE NAJ NAS CGC (Kona), CH Clanmarr's Steele Princess (Hattie) and CH Scotchbroom Thistle The Patriot SE (Sully) Visit: CroftersDream.com

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