What in the world is wrong with my dog?

[Cairnmania]

I'm with Janet with regard to training and also with others that a full health check for Barney is in order.

It truly saddens me that anyone would advise someone to " scruff him and put him on his side EVERY time he shows aggression toward one of us." I hoped this and all other so-called "dominance" centered training techniques had died with the dinosaur. This type of advice leads to more aggressive behavior - not less. Even more dangerous, it leads to a dog that learns not to give any warning before it will "attack" or demonstrate aggressive behaviours. Negative training - training which uses force, pain or negative surprises - turns dogs into potential time bombs or quivering, fearful wrecks - and sometimes both at the same time.

[Duncan's Mom]

Here is another suggestion. I thought of this because we fostered a beautiful australian sheperd male. He was very high energy and very dominant. He didn't show aggression toward people but was dog aggressive. To determine the best fit for a home for him, I was able to track down the breeder and get some history on him and his siblings. Also, with that information, I went back farther to grandsire and dams. He was from a strong working line of pretty aggressive herders. His sire is aggressive toward people and one of his siblings had bitten a person. With this information, I wasn't comfortable with him going to a home with young children. He ended up going to live in the country (40 acres) with a dog savvy family - no young children. He gets plenty of exercise and is getting along well with the other dogs. I guess the point of this post is that if possble, get as much information about Barney's family tree as you can and see if anyone else is having any issues with aggression.

[Skye04]

I think you inadvertantly keyed on something sucessful...not so much the scruffing, but the ignoring him. He went and sat in the corner because you ignored him. I think the trainer method a gentle but firm scruf may or may not be what worked --I think the key there was again, the silence.

I got a little intervention for Jackson and he is responding much more rapidly to the "I am ignoring" yo ubody posture and action on my part than anything to date. Scruffing Jack just led us to more aggression for us.

GOOD LUCK!

[bradl]

The Monks of New Skete who popularized the 'alpha roll' have long since rescinded their recommendation. Wolf studies suggest that the 'alpha roll' is actually a violent act of aggressive domination and not normally seen in natural packs (which are basically family units). Sudden and actual aggression on my part is not a signal I want to send to my dogs. When truly provoked, I will confess I will pick up a miscreant dog by the scruff and toss him (gently) into a crate or into a closed laundry room or whatever is available for a brief time-out. The punishment is really, as skye04 points out, banishment and being ignored. Watching dams discipline their litters, or housemates discipline rambunctious puppies - or each other - I see a quick snap and then ignoring (or abandoning) the pup.

As humans we have total control over our dog's environments: their food, their shelter, their toys, our attention, our affection, their very ability to move about freely. In all but the most rare and extreme cases, I should think that would be enough.

All assuming the root cause is not pain, illness, or stress.

[Barney's Mom]

Herein lies my frustration.....Scruff, don't scruff. So basically I am dam*ed if I do and dam*ed if I don't. Forgive my language, but that is my feeling. I have had three professional trainers tell me to scruff him. What no one seems to understand is that Barney has NO FEAR of us under certain conditions!! How can we possibly show him who is boss without gently and quietly laying him on his side and not letting him up until he is quiet???? We are not doing this in an aggressive manner! One of these trainers is a trained behaviorist, for Pete's sake!! And one trainer owns a Cain Corso (sp?) one of the most aggressive dogs you can own. He also said to scruff him and lay him on his side.

I am physically weary of trying to decide what I should do and shouldn't do, and fearing whether the decision I am taking is wrong. I am all for non-confrontational methods, if they work. But what do I if Barney gets something in his mouth that might hurt him or poison him? If he has a healthy fear/respect for us and knows he MUST drop that object when I say so, it will save his life. If I ignore him when he does it, he will be dead.

Life was so much easier with cats......

[robbie380]

barney's mom...you have to remember dogs are dogs. they think differently from humans. yes they love us and respect us but when they growl at us or do completely unacceptable behavior like lunging and biting YOU MUST END IT QUICKLY!

when I got Chico he was about 10 mos. old and completely untrained. it has been a long learning experience (he is almost 3 now) thru books, a couple training classes, and a lot of work...but I have learned to think like a dog with him. YOU ARE THE LEADER! DON'T LET HIM CONTROL YOU!

I haven't had any growling incidents with him in awhile up until a few days ago. to make a long story short...i thought chico and I were playing...he ended up getting possessive/territorial near his food bowl and showed his teeth and growled at me! I immediately grabbed him by his sides and the little punk tried to fight and bite me! so I quickly walked to the couch with him in my hands and calmly flipped him on his back and pinned him on the couch with my hand around his neck and starred him down. yes it sounds violent but it was not...all of it was done in a way to make him feel very uncomfortable without hurting him. I found out a long time ago that spanking was worthless and emotional domination was better. needless to say, the situation ended after he broke eye contact with me and I shooed him into my room and we fell asleep together on my bed.

I love chico to death but he is very strong willed and dominant. you must be more dominant than barney and take the attitude of "How dare you act that way with me!!! I am YOUR master!!!" when barney does act up.

[Janet]

Scruffing may or may not work with some breeds but I would not recommend it for a Cairn.

It will just make matters worse. Cairns are very willful and not the most obiedient of breed. I have been around Cairns all my life and I have never met one that can be completely mastered. It is part of their personality I am afraid. Firmness but trust and respect on BOTH sides are essential. Lucy my last Cairn had a few dominance issues as a pup and still had one or two until the day she died aged 12yrs. As a pup she tried to bite me when she was licking the dishwasher door and I tried to move her she was put straight in her bed and ignored for 2hrs. The same happened when she tried to bite when she was on a pile of washing when I tried to move her. She never did these things again or ever tried to bite. she was funny over food too at first but I never made a big deal of it. I would walk near by everyday but stopped if she growled after time I found I could walk closer. Then after a while I would change the water bowl while she was eating. This again started with little growls then eventualy she tolerated it. The I would just rest my hand on her back while I put the water down "not a sound" she had learnt to "trust" me. She never growled over her food bowl again as she knew I didn't want to take it. I wouldn't try to take it either it was her food at the end of the day so why cause stress to us both by trying. She was the sweetest natured dog in other ways but she had an issue over her bed last thing at night. Everynight I would stroke and kiss her head to say goodnight and she always had to have a little growl. I would put my head right next to hers as I knew she would never bite but she just had to have the last say. I respected that, it was her bed at the end of the day. I could kiss her in it during the day with no problems it was just last thing at night and she did this until a week before she died. It was just part of Lucys personality and we have to except this with our dogs. No two dogs are the same.

When Lucy was young she nearly choked on rawhide and she wouldn't open her mouth so I had no choice but to grab her and prize her teeth apart as she still had one end between her teeth and the rest was down her throat. she bit me on the thumb as I pulled it out. She never let me near her teeth after that or the vet either when he tried to give her dental check ups. I had frightened her and she never forgot it. Believe me Cairns never forget a bad experience. Needless to say she never was given any more rawhide chews. If I had used scruffing, water pistols, newspapers to train Lucy when she was a young dog then I am without doubt she would have been a nervous wreck.

[Cairnmania]

Hi Barney's Mom,

I understand your frustration. As Brad says, the scruff & hold down and so-called "dominance-busting" techniques were abandoned years ago by reputable trainers and dog behaviourists. Not only are they not necessary, but from a dog's perspective they are violent and in fact have caused even worse problems in many dogs than the techniques were designed to correct.

More than anything, Barney wants your attention and affection. The worst possible thing you can do to him is to deny it. Ignoring a dog completely is even worse for the dog than negative attention. We've all seen programs where dogs that are horribly mistreated by their owners will still wag their tails when they see them, very sad.

There is a TV program here in the UK called "It's Me or My Dog". The dogs on the program begin totally out of control. Barney is a little angel in comparison. They rule their owners and most of them engage in threatening behaviour to make their point - barking, growling, teeth bared and even some bites. All of them are transformed by the same basic technique - reward good behaviour and ignore the dog when it misbehaves. When a dog learns that acting out by barking and growling gets it absolutely nothing in return - exactly the opposite of what it wants - then you've taught it that this behaviour is not effective. "Nothing" means nothing. Not even eye direct contact. Pop the dog in a crate, or another room, or turn your back and pretend the dog does not exist for however long it takes for the dog to calm down, or fall asleep ... whichever comes first. And then don't forget to reward good behaviour!

You are right, cats are a lot easier! Dogs take more time and more patience. I know you've said that three trainers told you to scruff Barney. In my book, those are three trainers that I would avoid like the plague.

I've owned a fear-agressive German Shepherd, she could be very dog aggressive and also aggressive toward people. She'd been well socialized as a puppy, exposed to lots of people and other dogs .. but she was still fearful and that was something I could not change. The first trainer I took her to trained guard dogs for the prison service and was a so-called German Shepherd expert. He was the dominance theory type - after three lessons with him I called a halt to it. Feeding fear with fear made no sense and was clearly not helping her. I then went to two other trainers. One bred GSDs, many of them ended up as Seeing Eye dogs and she also trained her dogs in Schuzhund (spelling is not correct I know) The second trainer also trained his dogs in Schuzhund and also trained dogs for the police. The last two trainers taught me to control my dog through positive reinforcement and avoidance therapy (reward her for staying calm in situations where she would normally react). I also learned what caused her to react, which in her case was direct eye contact by a strange dog or person. So my point is that even "hard dogs" and "hard trainers" understand that you can train a dog to do anything soley through positive reinforcement.

Barney just sounds like a normal, pushy pup to me. I bet he's really smart - the uppity ones often are the brightest! Treat him like you would a child, with kindness.

[Kramersmom]

I have been reading all about Little Barney and keeping quiet. I by no means know how to train a dog, I just want to tell you that my Missy was very dominate little girl. She was bossy, didn't like any other animals, loved people and kids.

Missy from baby on when our Vet saw her for the first time he saw a brown mark on her tooth, he said this isfrom being sick when she was a baby. What she had we never would know. Missy was from a pet store and I believe she was from an over breeding mill. She ahd so many illness's. needed so many surgerys etc...But, too my point is, she did have alot of problems and I think they were related to bad breeding that caused her dominance to be so bad, very aggressive towards any animals and more. When we got Missy we had no kids so she was our little princess who can do no wrong, which in the long run was so wrong because she was not welled trained at all. Kramer now is a very well behaved trained dog.

I have learned alot over the years. Barney sounds like my Missy. If you touched her from behind or she didnt see your hand she would bite, she never would let you pick her up, she was never food, water, or toy aggressive at all, she could care less what you do with her food and toys or what you take away UNLESS IT WAS SOMETHING THAT COULD HARM HER

then forget it she would bite and you didn't get near her. She grabbed a sock from me when doing laundry she swallowed it, thankfully she passed it but the second time I wasnt as lucky. She grabbed a spandex headband. I grabbed a cracker to give her hoping she would drop it but she grabbed the cracker with the headband and gulped down both!

Surgery was needed. Now here comes the part I want to say. I knew Missys behavior, Our son was born when Missy was 6 and she never ever harmed him or would even try she protected him. BUT I knew Missy, as my son grew older had friends etc...I knew they had to say hello to her standing in front of her and pat her head only, I knew NEVER to leave things laying around the house that she could steal that would harm her. Missy was Missy, If anyone else owned her I'm sure they woud of gave up on her long ago due to her aggression but I knew what I had to do. She was that way with me,

not my hubby nor my son. I was a push over, soft spoken loving person who she knew I adored to no end. She knew she could growl and I would back off. As Missy aged she got more layed back, no snapping, but have a dog come near her she would kill it, so Missy lived a pretty sheltered life never really being able ot walk her due to her aggression of other animals. Kramer now if he grabs a sock he plays with it he is a dog that just doesn't eat things, even outside he will sniff and walk away and I say good boy so much to him he probobly thinks thats his name. I do not react when he gets something he shouldn't. I go quietly over to him and talk to him and say come on Kramer lets take the ball and I throw it and he forgets what he had. Kramer is a very smart well mannered dosile Cairn and Missy well she had dominance issues and puppy mill problems that I truly deep down in my heart think she had a few mental issues from being a mill puppy

and I knew if I didn't give her the chance no one would. So, for 17 wonderful years I ahd with my girl it was work and a challange to make sure she didnt get something she shouldnt or bite visitors. In 17 years she never bite anyone but me Yes, me and after the sock issue that was the last becasue I made sure NO socks on floor. It was a constant battle but I loved her too much to give up on her. Maybe you should get Barney checked by the vet even before training starts because Barney could have something going on that you do not know and he cant help.

Good luck with Barney and sorry this turned out so long. All my best to you

[Cairnmania]

Missyforever,

It sounds to me like one of Missy's gifts to you was a very deep understanding of dogs and dog behaviour. Kramer is her legacy.

[Janet]

Lucy like Missy was also from a puppy farm and I put this down to her personality. she also became ill with SARDS at 10yrs and went blind virtually over night. She had to have surgery on her knee at 5yrs because her kneecap was slipping. Despite all this she gave us 12 wonderful years and we loved her dearly.

Gem came from a very good breeder and like Kramer is very well behaved. I had to laugh Rhonda when you said he thinks his name is goodboy. Gem looks up at me when I say good girl because I think she thinks it means "treat". I am always giving her treats for good behaviour when we are out. She had a thing about barking at horses as they passed a while back. I cured this by feeding treats until the horse got passed us. She now associates the horse as a good thing because she thinks " Horse=Treats"

[goforette]

Barney's mom -

Yes I know - it's hard when you're getting advice on all ends - leaves you wondering what on earth is really the right thing to try or do... I've always been a firm believer in offering advice, but knowing that each person needs to do what is individually right for them - and that not all techniques work in all circumstances for any of us. I have scruffed Hollie - I've had to and in my opinion it's successfully helped us. I've also done as Brad has mentioned and Hollie is placed in a crate after being scruffed behind the neck immediately following something super bad. And the art of ignoring does work - she really recognizes she's done something bad. I remember Chris' mother coming over to the house when the girls were really little and her holding Hollie down on the ground on her back to be submissive and neither Chris or I cared for that technique and were not pleased that happened - but that's a whole other story. I know how you must feeling that no matter what you do - you're doomed either way - just remember lots of us have been in the same boat. Both Barney and my girls are the same age - and you know we've had our struggles too - so you're by no means alone - we all question if we're doing the right things, what works - what won't - what we feel comfortable doing, what we clearly would never try because it goes against what we feel is right to do to a dog. Don't give up, and just consider all of the forum just options to try - no human being on this earth has all the answers - just keep trying things, get lots of ideas and tips. I have full faith that Barney is going to be the dog of your dreams one day - if you didn't care so much you wouldn't keep seeking advice on the forum. That's why I wound up here - I needed guidance and ideas on how to raise a Cairn - keep your chin up - things are going to be okay

[Scruffys Mom]

Thanks Goforette,

This dialog has become one of the most offensive posts I have read on this board due to a few very opinionated posters. We all love our dogs, probably more than ourselves. As Gofor states, all of our dogs are different. We all use different training techniques, and just as there is no one sure proof way of raising a child, the same is true for our pups. My dogs are the love of my life and I would never do anything to harm them physically or emotionally. Anyone who comes in contact and spends more than 2 minutes with my pups usually comment on how happy and calm they are. I scruff Scruffy. Do I do often, NO. She is too well behaved to need that. Does she fear a scruff or hate it, NO. It actually gives her a chance to calm down from whatever rage she is experiencing. To have different opinions is one thing, but to demonize anyone on this board is completely out of line and uncalled for. I deal with sanctimonious self righteous people in the real world. I do not need it on this board. I have enjoyed many of you, but if this continues, Scruff Squirt and I are out of here.

[bradl]

To paraphrase something I once read elsewhere, "If you solicit opinions from the peanut gallery, you should be prepared to accept the crunchy with the smooth."

[Cairnmania]

Hi Barney's mom,

No one can doubt that your dogs are the love of you life - otherwise you would not be here, nor would you care enough to ask for advice.

I admit to having very strong opinions about the best approach to training dogs. They are based on "been there and done that" and advice from many different people over the years. And I'm still asking for advice and still learning.

I think we are all passionate about dogs and even though it may sometimes come across as offensive or sanctimonous, it's definitely not meant that way. The written word is a poor substitute for a face-to-face chat, that's for sure.

[Greg P]

Don't know the end all answer to this one......But as Brad L has pointed out before, "Reasonable people can choose to disagree."

I think this has been an interesting discussion.

Barney's mom, I know you said you would get a blood panel done soon. This is a good step. If they are out of whack, all the techniques in the world won't help him until he's right. I've seen 2 or 3 cairns get agressive or snappy only to find they weren't feeling well, or had a thyroid problem.

Greg P

[Sarah]

Don't worry, Scruffys Mom. You aren't alone. I scruff Henry. I know that I don't abuse my dog, and I try to make the best decisions for him and myself. I am confident in that, and I'm glad that you are, too. Luckily, I have a dog that requires little correction these days. Do I relate the training techniques that I learned to his good behavior? Absolutely. I'm assuming that there is a break down in my understanding of 'scruffing,' though. It's being discussed here as something terribly abusive, and I just can't fathom that. I was taught to give Henry a quick tug to get his attention. Is that what is being talked about as being abusive? What I do is akin to me tugging on my husband's arm to get his attention.

I agree that some of the comments I've read on this thread and elsewhere have been offensive. I was most put off by the (now closed) thread about the mixed puppies, even though it affects my life in no way. I believe the term 'idiot' was actually thrown around. While I can appreciate criticism, reasonable disagreement and crunchy opinions, it's rare to find any of that. What I find most are emotional responses from people that can't remember what it's like to make mistakes. That's the beauty of participating on a relatively anonymous internet board, though. I appreciate the passion if not the content.

Don't leave. Just stick to the fun, lighthearted stuff. I've adopted a 'don't ask, don't tell' philosophy that has proven to work well!

[toomanypaws]

Sarah,

I apologize, that was me who used the wrong choice of a word, but I was thinking about a situation that happened recently when I said that, just didn't think this was the place to go into it. I'll try to explain my anger. Brad, if this is the wrong place for this, just delete my post, but a Cairn mix was involved. A pet store in our town advertises "we buy puppies" and two pups in a litter of Cairn/Yorkie/Maltese mix (not sure what you call those), came down w/ parvo in the store which spread to some of the other puppies there. The sick pups were brought to a vet friend of mine for treatment. One has died, the others are still in quarantine being treated, but not doing good. The person who bred his dogs, was contacted and admitted he saw the pet store sign and just wanted to make a buck (his words) and that his dogs were never vaccinated. He refused to return the money he made and even said he didn't care what happened to the pups. My dh saw the pups and said one looked just like a Cairn and he didn't think she would survive. He said she was dark w/ some tan highlights, very adorable! The pups will not go back to the pet store, but will get adopted out if they pull through. In the future, I will be more careful w/ my words as I honestly don't want to offend anyone.

Barney's Mom, I was thinking about you and Barney and wondering how he's doing and if you got a chance to have the vet check him to rule out any medical condition?

[Barney's Mom]

Thanks to those who sent me PMs feeling bad about voicing their strong opinions. Please don't worry though, I was not offended by anyone's comments. Hubby and I just gleened from all of them and came to the conclusion that we just need to go with our gut feeling for each particular incident. Use the scruffing technique for extreme cases and non-confrontational techniques for other times. Barney seems to be better this week for some reason. He is leaving his toys better too. But something kind of wierd happened tonight. He was EXHAUSTED from playing at the dog park today with his favorite pal, a Aussie shepherd that is the same age as him. They wresssle for practically an hour and run around having fun. Anyway, I brought Barney downstairs and he immediately fell asleep on my lap. He was slipping off my legs and I gently scooted his hips over and he jumped up and snarled and growled, almost as if he was having a bad dream. He kind of looked at me afterward like, "Huh? OK, I'll go back to sleep now." But then my daughter ran in the room and plopped down on the couch right by my chair and he went balistic, barking and growling. Then the cat ran by and he did the same thing. Is he behaving this way because he is overtired??? I know he was a brat when he would get tired as a puppy, but I would think at 10 months, this would not happen. The only other time he has done this with my daughter was also when he was asleep on my lap. Don't know......

[Janet]

Hi Barneys Mom,

Any advice given by me or others on this forum was intended to help and not meant to be self righteous or "Demonise" you. You love and care greatly for Barney and that shines through in your posts. You asked for and was given advice from quiet a few people but not everybody thinks the same way and everybody has different oppinions. I am pleased you were not offended and have read all the posts and come to your own conclusions. That is all you can do because at the end of the day Barney is your dog and you have to live with him.

I can see now you have given more information about Barney snapping on your lap what the problem is. He sees you as his possesion and he is snapping at anything and anyone who tries to come between you and him. My last Cairn Lucy did this too when young. She would be on my lap and if my hubby tried to cuddle me she would snarl and snap. I got my hubby and kids to pay more attention to her and give her treats, food, cuddles and walks. Have your daughter feed him some small training treats while he is on your knee, something he really likes that he can eat quickly. Keep telling him he is a good boy while he is calm. As soon as she has finished put him down and praise him then act normal and give him plenty of attention. Do this a few times a day and I can guarantee after a few days the growling and snapping will stop. He will see that your daughter sitting next to you when he is on your lap is a good thing. Try and make Barney feel like he belongs to everyone in the family not just you. Over time Lucy became less dominant over me but would bark at us if we ever had contact. She would bark when visitors hugged and kissed us, especially when my father in law did it to me or when a fight broke out between the kids etc. That was Lucy and we had to accept this part of her personality. She was highly strung by nature and there was nothing we could do to change that although thankfuly we stopped her snapping at a young age.

I wish you lots of Luck with Barney. Just take each day as it comes and cross bridges when you get to them. Use common sense and your gut feelings and you won't go far wrong!

Janet

[Skye04]

Sounds like Barney is having a fear/startle response. As weird as it sounds the nastiness may be fear based...

[Cairnmania]

I used to have a Yorkie that would snarl and growl if she was woken from a deep sleep. In fact, I used to keep my other dogs crated at night because of it. If she was asleep and one of the other dogs walked by she would leap at them as if to attack. By the time her paws touched the ground she stopped and would wag her tail at her would be victim. She clearly did not have a clue that only a second before she had launched herself at them like a guided missile.

If Rudi is asleep and either my husband or I go to move him he will often growl and snarl. We ignore it and carry on moving him. It's no more than grumbling from him about being woken up and he never tries to bite. He also has a "funny spot" near his rear which freaks him out sometimes if it's touched, with the same response. That just gets ignored too.

[hallswel]

Hi Barney's Momma

I am glad you are listening and then doing what you think is best. I know how you feel when your baby behaves badly. I have 3 Cairns all with very different personalities. Rebel my boy has really mellowed as he has grown older. He is the type that is so careful when he takes a treat from me never greedy but he will bark at other dogs warning them to stay away but I know that is his problem. Then there is my she-devil Sugar who is gently with people but likes food and if you don't tell her to be gentle she will take your fingers off getting a treat and she is doesn't always play well with other female or large breed dogs. Then I have Harley who is a mountain goat. She likes to play and loves people and she prefers you drop the treat down for her to get it. She will get in the face of any dog she sees so they can play. Kinda a goofy little girl. I would train all of them a little different mainly because they all have different issues to deal with. Rebel needs a firm hand, Sugar need a really firm hand and Harley just need guidance and watching over.

Good for you getting a trainer. I did that with Sugar she had a private trainer, Rebel and Harley did okay in the group classes. I do use the time out with crates or just separating them from the family and it works well.

Liz