One step forward, two steps back....

[Barney's Mom]

So much for Barney's freedom. Every night after we go out for final potty time (on leash), we come in, I get a treat from the treat jar and I take Barney down to his crate for "nite nite", all on the leash. Well, tonight I thought I would see if Barney would follow me down to his crate once he knew I had the treat in hand. I called his name, all happy voices. He followed me down the stairs then took off like a bullet. I tried to corral him, then he took off up the stairs and ran straight for the cat's toy basket. He got a hold of a nerf ball and proceeded to make a game out of me trying to get it away from him. I finally got him, picked him up and put him in his pen. Then it began.... We have been working on "leave it" with pretty good success, but not 100% success. I showed him his treat and in a positive voice, I told him to leave it. He froze, his body got stiff and he started to snarl. I tried unsuccessfully for about 10 minutes to get the nerf from him. I tried to take it from his mouth and he snarled and tried to snap. Then I got mad. I thought to myself, OK, no more nice mommy! I am not going to let this little brat push me around like this. I scruffed him, I picked him up....no luck. More positive reinforcement....no luck. Just more snarling and Tazmanian Devil sounds coming from him. Then I got to my last resort

[avusblue]

Hmm ... everytime our doggies hold something in their jaws and won't let go ... we'll gladly stick our hands in and pry their jaws open, even if they growl. Shows them who's boss. Of course we were worried about getting bitten, but guess we've been quite lucky, and they actually seem to know if they're hurting us. We sometimes pretend to yelp in pain, and they'll let go. Guess they know not to bite the hand that feeds them. The doggies haven't won one yet ... unless of course its edible, small, and they swallowed it first. Even then we'll pry their jaws open and see what's left of it ..

Wow ... you've gotta be the most patient fur-parent on this board. Maybe u should write a book on Barney's antics, and your trials and tribulations ... I think it'll be a bestseller. Good luck.

Lawrence

[Janet]

Luckily I can take anything from Gem and she doesn't flinch, even a bully stick!

My last Cairn Lucy was a softy until it came to food. She was choking on a rawhide chew once and I had to prize open her mouth to get hold of the hard part in her mouth, the rest was down her throat. She bit me on the thumb as I pulled it out, now theres gratitude for you!

[mrskti]

do you want my trainers phone number, she'll talk to you over the phone? This is right up her alley. Sounds like Barney need's to visit her place for some attitude adjustment!

[Sarah]

I've never had a standoff with Henry, but he used to get aggressive when we'd play with his ball and would sometimes ignore me when I'd tell him to drop it. I decided to firmly hold him and pry his mouth open and take the ball. He snapped at me once and I made a big deal out of it and scruffed him, etc. He hasn't snapped since then, so I think he learned his lesson about that. I open his mouth all the time now to take things from him. It's as if holding something in his mouth is a last act of defiance that he just can't give up. He'll stop and sit and will let me take something from him, but he'll rarely just drop it!

It sounds like Barney is just a strong-willed little thing! Don't be too discouraged. Henry doesn't respond to 'leave it' every single time, either. It takes time and patience and firm guidance. Opening his mouth and taking the item will send a pretty big picture, I'd think. Can you do that?

[Tracy A.]

Any time that Mett & Bratt expierence something new in their routine, they run hog wild and get all excited until it becomes normal. As for the snatching a toy/item and playing keep away.... If I want it, and little Gremlin won't give it up, then I grab gemlin by scruff of the neck and hold on until they give it up. If that doesn't work, and I can't get it out of the jaws- instead of sticking my hand in the back of the mouth where all those nice huge molars are- I'll insert a metal pen or something simular and use that as leverage to get the back jaws open.... Made the mistake of using my finger once and i'll never do that again. And because I am Mean, once we go through a battle like this, then i'll try to give them the item back.... just to take it away... and give it back... and take it way..... ( of course this is all dependent on catching the little gremlin first....I'll use a blanket like a net or wait til the gremlin corners himself!)

And as Mrskti said, it would be a good time to consult a trainer for help since your having other issues.... Our little Terrorists can be just that.

[goforette]

Well I'm not sure I have a great solution as Hollie only did this one time in her life and hasn't done it since. She was disciplined quite heavily for it (minus any physicial punishment) and I don't think she's forgotten it. We just sprayed Hollie in the face with a water bottle - while Chris scruffed her so she didn't continue to come after me with her agression. She calmed down immediately. She was then crated for about 1/2 hour while Brystal remained out signaling to her that yes you were bad so you're going to have a little time out. She's been the model dog ever since (or at least when it comes to growl/agression/snapping) and that was a couple months ago maybe. Now when I tell her I want her bone or whatever she has she comes right to me and puts it inbetween my legs like here you can have it if you really want it. But you'd think bitter apple spray would be worse than just a water bottle and if Barney didn't respond to that - I'm not sure what to try....

[Cairnmania]

"I can't pay someone to come in and charge me major $$$ to psychoanalyze him! He's a DOG, for Pete's sake! "

No need for the big bucks, you've already diagnosed him correctly he's a dog. And a young dog at that! Getting frustrated because you diabolical plan for Barney to follow you downstairs to his crate and get into it without noticing that something fundamental different was happening failed. I would not rule out that Barney didn't understand why things were suddenly different and he got overexcited as a result - and as with young kids right before bedtime - situations can quickly escalate out of all proportion. One frazzled Cairn mom. One dead nerf ball.

BTW - there is a difference between "leave it" and "drop it". "Leave it" means don't pick that thing up. "Drop it" means drop whatever you have in your mouth. If you are using the same command to mean two different things, that could be confusing Barney.

[kjwarnold]

I don't remember how old Barney is, but Packy was almost 2 yrs. old before he really started responding to "Drop it!" willingly. Prior to that, it was a big game to see if Mom could catch him. And if I did, it was usually because he finally let me. We've never had the growling or aggression problem with Packy though. I can take anything out of his mouth and he just lets me. I think it's because we have all that practice taking acorns out of his mouth before we come in the house... And I've always practiced taking food and treats away from him from the first day we had him, so he's very used to that.

Good luck; I know you and Barney will eventually get there!

[Maddy's Max]

From day one I started taking things away from Max and giving it back to him. I put my hands in his dish while he is eating and he doesn't flinch. Now as far as catching him if he has something he's not suppose to have that's another story. He's getting a little better at 'leave it'. Once I get him I pry his mouth open and take it. He has never snapped or growled as I have been doing this since day 1. I would suggest putting on some gloves and prying his mouth open with a little force and showing him who is boss. Once you do it once and continue to give him things and take them from him he'll realize who is boss. You don't need to hurt him but you need to be aggressive enough to show him that you are his boss. Do some practice with him and give him toys or his and take them from him and give them back. Take a bone away and give it back. He'll soon learn. He sounds fairly strong willed so it may take time and patience but he will catch on. My last cairn was very strong willed and I struggled with the same issue but I still loved him. They are sooo cute.

[Flyboy]

You have to let him no it's not a negotiation.

Chewie did this when we first got him. And from everything I've read it's a dominance issue. Taking it from him by force isn't the answer. You must get him to submit. Don't use a happy voice, use a commanding voice. If he doesn't drop it the first time, calmly kneel down and place your thumb gently in between his jaws on the side and press. His mouth will pop open and the item will drop. It might take a few tries to fine the "sweet spot" and it might be discerting to do it while he's growling at you but if you show fear he will sense it.

You have to have the attitude that all the toys are yours. I'm not talking about being mean, just in control. From time to time, (maybe twice a month now) just out of the blue I will go over to our dog when he's chewing on a toy and tell him to drop it and take it from him for a few minutes. To get it back he has to sit or stay. If he doesn't I do this technique right away and keep the toy longer or don't give it back at all.

BUT - most of the time now when I do come towards him with that look on my face he just drops it and sometimes goes belly up.

[Will&Grace]

Barney's Mom, I just bought the first season of "Dog Whisper" on dvd from amazon.com. It was right at $40.00. I am learning a lot from it - and I am only 1/2 through the season. So far they've had dogs on there that seemed much worse than any of your stories of Barney and there was corrective action that worked. Anyhow, good luck! Linda

[goforette]

Barney's Mom, I just bought the first season of "Dog Whisper" on dvd from amazon.com. It was right at $40.00. I am learning a lot from it - and I am only 1/2 through the season. So far they've had dogs on there that seemed much worse than any of your stories of Barney and there was corrective action that worked. Anyhow, good luck! Linda

You know some of the dog whisperer techinques have worked for my girls too - I was in fact home one day early or something watching Oprah I think it was and he was on there and they were demonstrating proper/nice greetings at the door and I thought it looked a little far fetched but I tried and it worked. The girls no longer rush Chris or I when we get home and they no longer bark at the doorbell or frenzie over people at the door. I unfortunately don't have access to the Dog Whisperer on TV so I just rent them from Netflix

[Greg]

Good advice from all, but Cairnmania and Flyboy's post are worth reading again IMO. Its all about who is boss(your voice tone and mannerisums)....setting yourself and the dog up for success and seperating the events that happened. What you think of as one event was 2 or three different ones to Barney. Dont let him win on his terms...thats not an option.

[kcsdogs]

It sounds like Barney is having some questions of dominance here. I met a Cairn today that had a really questionable temperment it was okay with the owner touching it but the dog groomer that is my neighbor tried to touch her and she would growl and snap at her. The poor owner of this dog was at a loss as to what to do. As a trainer my advice to her:

1. ANY attempt to bite a human is NEVER okay. (duh...)

This dog (the one I just met today) is like a year old and obviously from a poor breeder that did not handle the puppies much and then sold them at under six weeks.

Dogs like this one and ones like Barney need to be seriously demoted. Do you make him work for stuff? (have him sit before you feed him and he can only eat once you say okay) stuff like that?

You might look into the NILIF (nothing in life is free) that is a good way to establish dominance over your dog in a positive way.

I would recommend that you take a pet obedience class with him or some private lessons if you can (they tend to be more expensive than classes)

Just because he is a terrier doesn't mean that this is acceptable behavior, if I have any dog here that snaps at me or anyone else they get put in their crate for a while, after a stern verbal correction from me IF I saw the incident. He needs to learn that this behavior gets him absolutely nothing he wants, also many people who have dogs that won't willingly give up their toys will not have toys available to them at all times. They learn that the good things come from you and they begin to look to you for them because in reality those toys are YOURS not his, maybe this is the point you need to make with him.

Once you have made some progress and he say releases the toy to you, you can begin rewarding him for that behavior. Rewards teaching him that he did something right, got a treat, and continued to be able to play with the toy. If he backslides a bit and doesn't release the toy put him in his crate for a while GAME OVER. And so on and he will eventually learn that snapping and growling is not a rewarding behavior.

I would also not engage in games like tug of war with him due to these behaviors, try fetch or find it. Battle games are going to harm the process with a dog that display these types of behaviors. I hope I have been of some help. I know how hard these things can be to deal with especially when Cairns are so cute!

[Tuckersmom]

When Tucker has something I want him to drop, I grab him on the back of his neck and say DROP IT! If that doesn't work, I say "Listen" and he puts his ears up and it really still...he usually drops what ever he has... I know I tricked him - but it works!

As far as getting him to come to you, I have that problem sometmes too he is getting better. I trick him again (Poor little guy) My parents have a dog and they live right next door, so when I am in my house and he doesn't come, I call my parent's dogs name - and Tucker comes running right to me. He also knows the word "bunny" and if I say that he will come...go figure. But he has gotten alot better, but he is also 16mons.

Good Luck....it will get better....

[Barney's Mom]

I have been doing the NILIF training with Barney. He sits and waits until I say OK to eat. He sits or lays down for toys, treats, etc. I will lay a treat on the ground and he will leave it alone until I say OK. He sits when I tell him to sit, lays down when I tell him to lay down. When he is in the kitchen and starts licking the dishes in the dishwasher I say NO and he stops and walks away. We never play tug of war games for the very reason you mention. He never growls when I come near his food. It's just this issue of leaving something NEW that he has come upon.

The whole day I have had this aweful feeling in my stomach. I have this wierd fear of him that he is going to turn on me. Last night shook me up that much. I get very uneasy now when I know I have to correct him. I don't want him to sense that so I try to cover it up. I felt this way when he was a puppy and showing dominance. He is 10 months now and he is better, but we still have these horrible blow ups every once in a while. Call me crazy, but that's how I am feeling.

I purchased a video today on Amazon by Charlotte Foster called "It's Not the Dog....Training You to Train Your Dog" I hope this video helps. In the reviews, people either LOVED it or HATED it. We'll see...

[Tracy A.]

The whole day I have had this aweful feeling in my stomach. I have this wierd fear of him that he is going to turn on me. Last night shook me up that much. I get very uneasy now when I know I have to correct him. I don't want him to sense that so I try to cover it up. I felt this way when he was a puppy and showing dominance. He is 10 months now and he is better, but we still have these horrible blow ups every once in a while. Call me crazy, but that's how I am feeling.

I know this is easier said than done, but try not to have fear when your around Barney.... dogs can sense it with ease.... Barney could take advantage of it.

Case in point, muddy dog who you don't want to jump on you.... so you act defensive and leary of said mud puppy..... only to have them Jump on you more than they ever have!

[savannahsmom35]

Savannah has been going through some one on one training and her trainer uses a choke collar. I don't know what kind of collar that you are using but the choke collar really seems to get their attention. According to Savannahs trainer, you have to have a dog who does well in all around obediance to really have the dog truely respect you as the alpha. When we are using the choke collar, the trainer tells Savannah what to do and if she listens and does it correctly, it is pets and verbal praise. If she doesn't listen, it is a tug on the collar coupled with a sharp "No". If you have Barney on a leash all the time anyway, I would put him on a choke collar. If he is doing his shrill bark at nothing at all, you first say "quiet". If he continues to bark you say "no" tug the leash and say "quiet". Repeat until he is quiet, increasing the force on the tugs each time. Once he is quiet, praise and affection.

Does Barney play ball? This is how I taught Savannah drop it. She MUST drop the ball at my feet before I will throw it. I would say, "drop it" until she actually dropped the ball and then I went to pick it up. If she lunged for it, i said "no drop it". Until she dropped it and let me pick it up, I would not throw it. She quickly learned what the term drop it means and will usually do so when told even when not with the ball but with something else.

As for leave it, take a treat and put it in the palm of your hand. Tell Barney leave it. When he goes to get the treat out of your hand, close your hand and say "no, leave it". continue until he sits quietly and waits for the treat. Next step, put the treat on the floor in front of you while you are sitting on the floor. Tell him leave it. when he goes for it, cover the treat with your hand and tell him "No, leave it" Wait for him to stop going for the treat. Un cover the treat with your hand and tell him leave it. Continue until he leaves the treat without going for it. Next, put the treat on the floor in front of you by your feet while you stand. Tell him leave it. When he goes for it, cover the treat with your foot and tell himNo leave it. Continue as before.

To get Savannah to go to her crate, I started like you by putting her on her leash and telling her to get in her bed. I would take her by the leash into the room where the crate was and take a treat and hold the treat in the back of the crate so that she had to go in the crate to get the treat. Always use the words "Get in your bed" when you do this so they associate the phrase with the action. After we did this about 2 weeks, I closed her in the room with the crate and we practiced the same way without the leash (with her closed into the room, it made it so she couldn't run all crazy like Barney did). Everytime she went in voluntarily, she got a treat. Soon (about a month) she associated getting in the crate with getting a treat and now she gets in the religously. Best thing I ever taught her.

As for the aggression, if you have Barney on the choke collar and he growls at you, take the leash and hold it up )not so high that it picks his feet up off the floor but so that it puts tension on the collar) and tell him NO about three times. I SWEAR this works! Do this everytime he growls or shows aggression! Also, you have to MAKE Barney do whatever you tell him to do EVERYTIME even if it means you physically (not roughly) force him to do it. He has to learn that it is not a choice, it is a command.

It will take some work but I think if you start doing some of these things, it will REALLY help! If you have questions or want to know how to train another command, or anything, let me know. I am paying big bucks to have Savannah trained so if I can help anyone else, I would feel like I am getting my moneys worth out of it. Best of luck to you. Hang in there! P.S - sorry so long!

[toomanypaws]

Hi Mary, I'm in the process of emailing you, but had to come back to the forum and read your post again. Has Barney been checked for Hypothyroidism? It's probably a long shot, but some symtoms are sudden changes in temperament. Also, if it is a behavior problem, check into counter conditioning and desensitization.

I'm back to finishing my email to you.

[Skye04]

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone on this thread...I just posted a new topic in behaviors about my Cairn doing this crazing guarding behavior every evening...there are several tips here that I think might help.

It is also encoraging to see that it seems to be "normal" for some things to take a fair amount of time with Cairn's.

The fact that it took over a month for one to learn to crate is a great example, my border collie had it down in a day and would go there and stay on command even with the door open after a week. But my Cairn is much more an independent thinker!

Thanks all. And to the owner of Barney, mine sounds equally horrible! So I know how you feel!

[Barney's Mom]

BARNEY UPDATE: Bear with me, this is long....

Things started to improve after I took some of everyone's advice, but then today was the worst day ever. We tried the "speak their language" route, where I said "leave it" when he had his bone in his mouth. I said it, he wouldn't let go, I said LEAVE IT then growled with my voice and he let go. I praised, then gave him back his bone. We did this back and forth for several times and I was so encouraged. After the first time, I didn't need to growl with my voice. I praised him, then gave him his bone to chew.

Then he got a hold of the cat's toy which he should not have. The same old thing happened. He got stiff, started growling. I said leave it very firmly without correction. Then I said it louder with no correction. Then I scruffed him and laid him on his side with very firm LEAVE IT's. NO LUCK. My husband had to help me hold him because he was trying to get away. More snarling, more hysterical growling. Kept holding him down repeating LEAVE IT! Barney then proceeded to pee all over the floor. Finally we got the squirt bottle and squirted him while scruffed and on his side and we got it out of his mouth. He did NOT submissively leave the toy, we just got it out of his mouth. After that horrible incident he was standing up, looking at me wagging his tail......

Episode 2, 2 hours later.... I am walking him down to his pen to go to bed. I have his treat. He walks by a pile of dirty laundry and grabs a sock....a very big temptation to him. He grabs the sock and the whole thing starts over again. LEAVE IT in normal voice. Nothing. LEAVE IT! Firm voice. Try to take the sock. Growl and stiff body. Scruff him, put him on his side. Snarling, hysterical behavior. We get the water bottle and give him a squirt. He goes for the bottle in my daughter's hand and gets her finger. We got the sock, but not willingly by a long shot.

We do EVERYTHING everyone has told us to do to "demote" him. We do all the NILIF things. He can't eat until I say OK, he can't go out the door unless I say OK, he sits for treats, food, everything! I walk him 3 miles a day for exercise and if I can't walk him, I play ball with him on the stairs so he runs up and down about a hundred times until he is totally wiped out.

I am getting so frustrated because there are so many different views on what I should do. One trainer says never use treats and make your dog submit to you. Another trainer says always use positive reinforcement, never negative. Well, positive reinforcement works for Barney unless what he has in his mouth is better than the treat, then it's worthless. The negative reinforcement seems to get him even more fired up. We never hit him, only scruff him and spray him. But from the way he acts you would think we are torturing him. All we wan't is the sock/toy/object, but to him we are asking him for WW3.

How do I break him of this possessive agression without being tough with him? All the sweet and nice commands don't do anything. Heck, the firm ones don't either!! Tonight was the first time I have ever thought of getting rid of Barney, as much as I love him. I feel there is nothing that will work with him. He is a sweet and loving dog except when he grabs something. That is why he can never be let off a lead or out of a crate to roam the house. He gets free and runs all over the house until he finds a good item then becomes horribly possessive. And there's another thing. I thought maybe I am not giving him enough toys to play with and that might be why he is going for all these things. Then I read that if you give them too many toys they think the whole house is full of toys, even the things that aren't!! But every toy I give him he destroys in 10 minutes, so all I CAN give him is chew bones, kongs and tennis balls.

I am ready to spend some money to get some help for him, but I don't want to get someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and all the money goes down the drain. I need the tools to train Barney in such a way that this behavior is stopped, and so far, almost everything I've been told to do is not working. I used to think it was because he was a terrier, but now, after reading the posts on this thread and hearing so many say that they don't have this problem with their dog, I am beginning to think it's not the breed, it's BARNEY!

I have reached an all-time low and feel like giving up. This 20 pound little devil seems unbreakable, and I am afraid he is going to and up hurting someone. I try to balance the discipline, affection and exercise like I am supposed to, but that seems to make no difference at all. The ONLY time I ever need to be firm with him is in this situation. But I think if he was free in the house, that situation would be never ending.

If anyone has anything different to add, please do so, because I am at the end of my rope.

Mary

Barney's Mom

[jodi0553]

Mary,

So sorry to hear it was such a rough night. I don't have much to add besides my sympathy! Two thoughts came to my mind as I read your post, and I hope they can be helpful to you.

First, you comment about each trainer saying different things. I went to two different trainers, and got very mixed opinions, and watch dog whisperer and read traning books which add more. None are the same, and I'd say that is because there are so many different dogs, and some techniques will work for you and Barney, and some won't. I'd use one or two approaches that seem to have some effectiveness, and stick with em. The dog definitely need that consistency. Personally, I do use treats, but not exclusively. When Currey gets something in his mouth that he shouldn't have and takes of sprinting, I get out a box of treats and shake it and call his name if I cannot catch him. He usually drops the object and we make a trade - I get the sock/glove/whatever, and he gets a treat.

Second, I noticed something you said that the very effective trainer I went to had a strict rule about. He told us to give the command once and ONLY once, and then give the correction. He said otherwise the dog may think a command is a suggestion, not a command.

Currey's a few months older than Barney, and has calmed down a whole lot in the past couple of months. He still has his foot/shoe/sock fetish that results in him attached to my foot growling at least once a day, but we're plugging along and really like him most of the time! Keep it up - you can do it!

Jodi

[Tracy A.]

Hi Barney's Mom:

Wow, sorry to hear about the weekend battles. I noticed on your profile that Barney is about 9 months old... very much a teenager in Dog years.

So I guess next step is to find a trainer who is going to work for you- Perhaps mrskti's trainer might know someone in your area.... I think mrskti is in No. Ill and your in Central...

At least worth a try....

[Kramersmom]

My first Cairn Missy was that way with socks! I had a few episodes with her where one she passed and one she did not as she ate them! I always made sure I didn't leave socks laying around. Missy was our baby we just got married and I wasn't a good trainer and never disiplined her. (I was young too) LOL

Missy until the age when she passed at 17 years old if she had a chance for a sock she would gobble it. I know training her the way we did was not good but I could never disipline her, I just made sure socks were put away.

Now Kramer, he can take a sock and just throw it and play with it and not chew it. He is not a chewer nor one to not give you something excpet if it is something he knows he should not have. For instance, our sons good hoodie with strings he wont chew it or nothing, he loves to sleep on it but the strings one day may become tempting for him so we take it away.

He doesn't give it up easy by no means. We tell him Kramer give it up, he looks at us as to say WHY? My husband is excellent on training, me I'm a softy so what he had me do is say Kramer, Leave it, if he doesn't move I just take hold of his scruff very lightly and he then just walks away. I then say good boy and talk to him as to why he cant have that

(Like he uderstands) NOT, but the gentle soothing talking to him afterwards makes me feel better and him to that I'm not mad. Kramer is a very gentle, sensitive boy and he is so good I feel bad when I have to take something away from him becasue I know he wont ruin it. My hubby feels if he shouldnt have it no matter if he ruins it or not he dont get it.

Good luck with Barney, I know it so hard when they dont listen I feel for you as Missy was very stubborn but part of that was she was my first only dog and my dog, just getting married my very first dog that was MINE so training her was down the drain. She was a spoiled princess, with no manners. I hope it can work out, I hate too have to see Barney depart you & the family. Hopefully a trainer can help.

Good luck to you & Barney