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aggression in 6 yo cairn


valerie

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😪I just got a large bite 2inch by 3 inch on  my wrist from 6 yo cairn. Un neutered male, He does not like to have a coat put on in freezing weather, not combing, not teeth brushing. He slinks under chairs when I go to put on his leash and has bitten me twice when I have tried to drag him out. The last bite is more serious and he took off the whole dermis. Normally he is friendly but he does dictate where we walk. He is bossy

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so sorry this happened. you can find LOTS of threads on here about dealing with cairn biting. have you had him his whole life? this sounds like a classic case of an under-trained cairn indulging his natural "bossy" tendency. it would help if you could tell us more about his life and your relationship. and how many people are in the house.

the approach has to be comprehensive --everyboy on board, and ready to approach this with patience and determination. letting your dog get his way is a mistake, but so is getting angry or getting afraid . in the threads you will see lots of strategies for dealing with cairns who have got to this place. please read the threads and see what situations resemble yours. any dog can be retrained. but you need to have a plan and everybody in the family has to go with it. 

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Nothing to add to what what pk says. Agree completely. Many many of us cairn owners have had to deal with bitey cairns. Read and see how different people have dealt with bossy bitey cairns. 

Wishing you and your cairn all the best.

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Thank you. I have had him since 12 weeks old from a breeder. I have an elderly parent at home and me. I walk him 4 to 6 miles a day and he often picks where we go since I like to give him that freedom. He is the second Cairn I have owned. The first never showed any aggression but died at 7 of prostate cancer. I have had dogs all my life including boxers and rottweiler and never had any problems with biting. The biting occasions have been when he stepped on a thorn and i needed to soak his foot,he took it for 2 days then bit me on the palm. He gets aggressive when I try to put a winter coat on and will hide under chairs and if I go to pull him out  from under, This is the second or third time he has attacked but this bite was the worst.  This has all happened in the last 8 mos. Now I am nervous of him and afraid for him to be around other people and would be devastated if he hurt any one else. I am going to look for a dog trainer but do not know if there is much to be done. I will read the threads and thank you. He is a lovely dog in general

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yes, as hills creek says, I had a bossy bitey cairn who had a heart of gold. I think bossy and bitey is partly fear and nervousness because the cairn is a feeling a need to take charge. it took us a long time to work through things but it made us closer. 

sounds like your first cairn was a bit unusual. this one matches the cairn mug shot pretty well. if the behavior is distinctly worse, then the first step will always be a complete medical checkup --lots of things can change behavior, most of them correctible or manageable. so first make sure he is not in pain or filling himself with cortisol because of some medical condition.

there is plenty to be done! first check for medical factors, then you have to decide that this is going to change. when humans demure, cairns take charge, and that means punishing anybody who breaks their rules. it just requires being consistent and fair. your dog has to believe the he cannot get around you either with charm or threats (or actual biting). he cannot be able to identify somebody in the household who will fold. everybody has to be on board.

I don't know if everybody agrees, but I believe that with a cairn (and maybe any dog) the approach has to be comprehensive. he has to learn good manners in everything --sit down when somebody comes into the house (with your approval), wait politely for meals, sit down to be leashed, etc. an overall environment of being civil and not allowing him to take charge is essential. it is cute when they appear to be running everything, till the moment they decide to punish people who don't do as they are told. 

you have to never be afraid of your dog. since they can have bad tempers, have lightning reflexes, huge jaws and teeth like knives, this isn't likely to be something you can just accomplish through charisma. my first recommendation is a good harness with a short leash attached at all times (not forever, but for training). any backchat, and up up and away to timeout. my cairns were very responsive to this --they could not stand being ignored and I don't think they like the embarrassment of being helplessly lifted off the floor and rushed away. if you like the hands-on approach, I recommend thick gloves, like wood stove gloves. there are things you can't do with them, but you can certainly make him sit, stay, and go to time-out. there are a great variety of techniques but the goal must always be the same: you must have no fear of your dog, and he must know that.

don't yell (except when being bitten, that is a good time to yell) or cry. your dog will see all kinds of possibilities if he knows he is pushing your buttons. cool, calm. if you have tools to deal with him, that becomes easy.

I'm in two minds about trainers. some of them clearly do not understand terriers generally, and least of all cairns. I don't believe all training techniques that would work on shepherds will work on terriers. a trainer can probably do a better job training you (which is not trivial) than training your dog. but be prepared for your dog to ace the classes then go home and consider the whole thing inoperative.

you can do this if you want to. it is extremely important for your dog's safety that you do. 

Edited by pkcrossley
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I had a rescue cairn -- he had been a stray on the street so no one really knew his background -- who clearly had fear aggression, and bit when he was scared.  Unfortunately, I did not always recognize what might scare him. Once he was in my lap when a firetruck, lights flashing but no siren, came down the street. He started to bark at it, and I raised my finger to correct him and say "no." He snapped so quick I had no time to pull back, and I had a rather unfortunate slice down my thumb.  I had not realized he was afraid of the firetruck. He bit me two other times, and occasionally got into battles with my other cairn, a very assertive female who would not take any lip from him. I loved him dearly, and accepted him with all his quirks.  That said, he never outgrew the aggression, and I had to be very careful about who he was around and when. And honestly, he could be the cutest, cuddliest little dog in the world, and was -- most of the time.  He died rather young of a seizure disorder...so he had other problems and issues as well.

The good news (yes! there is good news!) is that your dog's biting behavior seems related to specific instances where he doesn't want to put up with whatever you are doing.  I do think that, with time, patience and a firm firm will (on your part -- he has that firm will already, being a cairn), you can train this out of him.

Folks here have very good advice, and I would try that first.  I believe many dog trainers do not understand cairns, and I have found that many simply do not like them, probably because they want to TRAIN dogs and do not understand or accept the cairn's independent spirit. There are other breeds who seem just waiting to be trained -- witness golden retrievers, etc. I suggest you go back to the breeder you got your dog from, if a local cairn breeder, and also check in with your local cairn club to find owners who have ideas about local training programs and trainers who can work with cairns.

You do want to address this.  You already know some situations that might prompt poor behavior, and you can change your behavior to lessen the likelihood of a dog/person battle over the issue. 

Do you also have a kennel/crate where the dog can occasionally take a time out when you are not watching carefully? I think that might also help.

I know how scary it is to have a dog that bites. And how heartbreaking.  Keep up your search for ideas and help, and keep trying.  I really think you can succeed in changing things around.  Good luck.

 

Edited by Kathryn
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I have trained retrievers and terriers. It's like night and day. In general my retrievers were eager to learn and do what I wanted. My terriers jrt and cairn were eager to learn and sometimes learned faster but were reluctant to agree to what I asked unless there was something in it for them. The difference is that the retrievers' job was to be directed to find and retrieve for the hunter. The terriers' job was to work independently to drive out prey for the hunter.

Re trainers. I think the trainer's job should be to train and help the owner how to relate to and train his/her dog- of any breed. It's no good if the dog works for the trainer but not the owner - the dog knows the difference. Agree may trainers or people giving obedience classes don't like terriers because they are often so ornery. Terriers think its fun to go their way. Working dogs (eg Sheperds and Retrievers etc) want to know how to understand what you ask so they can do it.

If your boy has been fine until you having to force him regarding the paw then you can regain his trust. It will take a long time but it can happen. Start with the advice pk gives about asking him to behave in every aspect of his life eg sit and wait till his food is put down.  

He sounds lik a great and typical cairn. Make sure he has no health problems then take a deep breath and start over asking him to behave  Praise him whenever he does something even a little bit near to what you want. Angus responded very much to praise. I rarely said no -Saying lets try again or waiting and trying later. Used the time out treatment pk mentions. Did not use crate for this. It was where he slept, it was his den and special spot of his own.

Be brave no matter what. 

Let us know how you get on. Post pics when you have a minute and tell us his name.  We've struggled too!

 

 

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Totally agree with all the above. Get him checked out for any possible medical issues and get help from a knowledgeable trainer.

They are to smart for their hairy pants and will take advantage of the situation if they can dominate the situation. Pretty much every Cairn will try this with their owners. Finding a good trainer that understands the nature of Terriers, does not use harsh methods is paramount. I think most Cairns will always test their owners through out their lives...and in a lot of ways I personally love that about this breed. As long as you have the upper hand (most of the time) there isn’t a more rewarding animal to have in your home.

Until one has loved an animal, a part of  one's soul remains unawakened.  - Anatole France

Adventures with Sam &Rosie

 

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"I believe many dog trainers do not understand cairns, and I have found that many simply do not like them, probably because they want to TRAIN dogs and do not understand or accept the cairn's independent spirit. "

absolutely. there is nothing more noble than the big dog sitting patiently asking "what do we do now, boss?" with cairns, it will never happen. they are more likely to train you than the other way around. no wonder trainers don't like them!

I agree that no matter what kind of progress you make with your cairn (and there is plenty of reason to believe you can make progress), being careful forever of whom he is with and avoiding all triggers in human or animal company will be essential. the best terriers in the world can have bad days, and it is pointless to deal with the consequences when they can simply be avoided. 

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I am very new here, too, Valerie-- just joined this board yesterday, and we got Spike in late June-- but I just got bitten on the face pretty bad on Friday.  So sorry about your hand, that sucks!  I understand the fear-- the swelling has come down a lot, and the scabs are healing better than I thought, but with my pandemic non-haircut I still look like Iggy Pop after stage diving into a beer bottle.  I'm on blood thinners, so it was terrifying-- blood everywhere, and a really bad minute or two waiting to see if it was going to stop.  (It always does, even when my blood is plenty thin from Warfarin/Coumadin.  Go figure.)  And when PK said it's okay to scream when bitten, he was speaking my language, I hollered so loud I'm astounded no one called the cops.  The only time I've had face wounds this bad before were when I was mugged in the lobby of my building in '87 and attacked by a street gang in '77.  (Those were both worse, but not much.)

I felt such shame that I had a dog I hadn't been able to control.  We run a fairly tight ship around here-- we do make both dogs sit and wait for their dinner, for example-- where we were (sometimes) lax is with behaviors like jumping, but we've really tightened up on that since Friday, as well as ANY nipping or mouthyness that goes along with it.  

Another thing:  Since we set up Spike and Bartleby to sleep in my home office instead of my bed two days ago, Spike's definitely a bit calmer all around.  I can't put my finger on it, but things just seem way less chaotic here, and I didn't think they were that chaotic before.  

What I'm starting to learn is, these are not 'normal' dogs, and not even like other terriers.  We had another terrier mix, Freddie-- he was a bit larger, killed kittens, birds, skunks, and shredded a stranger's pants once on a walk for no reason and with no warning.  (Designer jeans, too, cost well over a hundred bucks to buy the guy a new pair.)  But Freddie only nipped me on the nose once, and it was when I was doing something stupid.  Spike is easier to train in many ways, but obviously a far more unpredictable and dangerous animal.  I thought I was joking when I said to my wife, "When he goes off, this is like having a raccoon or a badger," but I found out the hard way that it's no joke at all.  

PK said it well: "You have to never be afraid of your dog, since they can have bad tempers, have lightning reflexes, huge jaws and teeth like knives, this isn't likely to be something you can just accomplish through charisma."  

There are some things I won't be able to do with this guy-- like have him sleep in our bed, or get within 20 inches of his face-- even if he has a full checkup and we tighten up the training.  But, like your Cairn, the violence ours perpetrates does seem to be situational, at least.  So I'm considerably more hopeful than I was a couple of days ago.  

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the bed sleeping thing --I can't explain it but you put your finger on it. Some dogs cannot handle the emotional and territorialist dynamics of sharing a bed with humans. some cairns can handle it, but others just find life easier to make sense of if they sleep on their own. 

I suspect Spike knows very well that you have inserted a bit of distance because of what he did, and he is chastened. Cairns are extremely sensitive to human emotions, and nothing really seems to get past them. My more problematic cairn would straighten himself up if I simply left the room and he knew he was the cause. It hit him that hard. He knew I loved him no matter what and he would always be here, but he truly regretted doing anything to make me unhappy. 

They are bred to have a hair trigger (otherwise the founding dogs did not survive), and I saw my dog often wracked with guilt and regret after having a temper tantrum. That's why I advise screaming when bittenor  scratched. I don't think they know how delicate humans are until they have a demonstration. Some cairns manage to raise their tantrum threshold pretty high, others may not make a lot of progress with that. They are not toy dogs, they are the real thing, and have to be handled with awareness of that. 

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 Thank you so much for all your support. I love Archie dearly and would do anything to improve the situation. He is un neutered and recently a local dog was in heat. I do not know at this stage if it would help to neuter him or if her cycle triggered something off.  I have become nervous of him and am working on that.  I will take the trainer cautions in consideration.He recently had his yearly physical and is in perfect health. Will take a day at a time. Thanks

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Agree w/ PK, though no experience w/ Cairns in that regard. 

I've always wondered about neutering late, I think it's medically a bit more risky in the short term, but still better long term, ask a vet or someone else who knows a lot more than I do!  I am also curious if the impact on temperament is any different.

Our late Bichon, Zippy, was neutered late, though not nearly as old as Archie-- probably around six to eight months.  Near the end of his life, he fooled the vets who said he had 'weeks, maybe only days' to live.  He had stopped eating for days, but he bounced back after a decent-sized earthquake in July of 2019-- leaped off the couch and wanted to go on patrol.

Five or six weeks later, he seemed to be fading again, and the walks were getting shorter and slower.  One day, I was stooping to pick up a turd, and suddenly the leash jerked so hard I nearly fell over.  Zippy was straining at the end of it, tail in the air, posture like a show dog with his chest puffed out... in front of the neighbor's Colombian Fino Hound who was, in fact, in heat.  He always did a lot of humping for a neutered dog, and was stubborn as hell for his whole life.

He bounced back again, and lived four happy months longer than the vet had predicted with good quality of life-- road trips, climbing stairs, playing with Bartleby, etc.

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His name is Archie. I have a trainer coming in a few days for in home evaluation. This trainer helped me with my rotweillers and seemed to have insight into cairn behaviour. I have been nervous leashing him but make him sit, give him treat and clip his harness up. I think he has become top dog and needs redirection. thanks so much

 

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Keep us posted and let us know how it goes!  Spike has had a little backsliding recently-- not too bad, but started trying to run away when being leashed up, or being too rowdy and biting his harness so I can't get it on.  The sit-stay does help.

It is hard to maintain the vigilance about a possible bite but also be relaxed and fearless at the same time.  When I'm on top of my game, I can do it, I feel like I've got it.  But if I'm stressed, or tired, or trying to do too many things at once (which, these days, is not many!) I lose the confidence.

 

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It is stressful living with a bossy minded cairn which generally speaking they all are, but each time Spike and Archie -like all the rest of our independent minded cairns - agree to do what you ask you are one step closer to becoming partners. It may take a long time -months and months not a couple of weeks but if you are patient and persistent it will happen. Praise is important.

They have to see what's in it for them before they will agree. So for example getting a leash put is a game to outwit you until gradually they realize sit for leash = treat = walk time = fun outside. Let them having sniffing and dawdling time, and play time, as well as moving along time. 

I was amazed when finally I got to the stage with my Angus when I would say walk and he was at the door before me sitting waiting, tail going and going.

Keep at it. It's well worth it😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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it is true that cairns demand you be on your game, at least for a time. they are high performance types and they have high expectations of their leaders --if you don't make the grade, they don't feel they have to respect you. but in my experience, they are fair. if you get their respect, they acknowledge it. it can change things permanently (as does growing up, which for a cairn comes a bit late).. as i said before, my beloved cairn and i went through a lot of sizing each other up before we got to where you want to be with a cairn. it made us closer. i don't believe there is a more companionable, insightful, empathetic, loyal and supportive breed. they are just not plug and play. they make their humans do a lot of earning and expect you to expect the same of them. 

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