From feisty to brutally territorial

[Andres]

Romeo is now 10 months old, still intact. He's always been a sweet, playful and extremely social dog.. we take a long walk at noon and go to the park everyday at evening where he runs and plays and what not with a bunch of other dogs, which are ranged from puppies to 2, 3 years old, in a fenced area where there's no need for a leash. From time to time he got into minor trouble -like any other dog- due to a ball or some rough game going out of hand but nothing too serious.

Since the last two, three weeks.. he started to get a *lot* of interest in females and whenever there's an intact one (in heat or not) he gets obsessed and whenever a male approaches to the female he now gets into a fight with them. Sometimes this territorial fight just happens when he sees another male from his same age that he doesn't like (for some reason it's usually Huskies or other bigger dogs) entering the fenced area, or when other male pushes him or tries to mount him.

My question is: is this *just a phase*? Or is it a behavior that will likely stay? 

Castration is a topic that we're still discussing at our home. I'm aware that these issues will mostly go away after snipping the goods, but in case we rule out castration and this is not a phase but a pattern to repeat through time.. will he not be able to be at dog parks again? I love that he is social and I'd hate to see him not being able to meet and play with other dogs freely. He never gets in trouble while on a leash or outside the park.

Some insight and experience is more than welcome!

Edited September 18, 2020 by Andres

[Kathryn]

Hi Andres - Certainly your dog is at an age where hormones are beginning to affect him.  A vet might be able to give you a better answer as to whether these hormones are affecting his behavior but -- I guess I would like to ask why you are questioning whether or not to neuter your male.  Generally a neutered male (and I have had more male cairns than female cairns, all neutered, and all much much more cuddly and affectionate than the females...) is considered a better pet than an intact male. Is your pup one who is considered of such a quality that you would want to breed him?  In that case, do you plan to show him to gain credentials which might attract buyers/owners of his future pups? 

I really think, if you do not want to show and breed the dog, that neutering is the best option. Your dog is at the age where it would be appropriate to schedule the surgery.  It really is not difficult -- usually! -- for a male dog and they bounce back very quickly.  Neutering does seem to alleviate some of the problems that come with a male dog, including aggression.

Of course, cairns are headstrong dogs, and yours just might be one who does not play well with others.  I did have a dog -- a female -- who loved all people, and generally hated all other dogs.  She didn't fight (very often) but did display her dominance in quite specific ways (she claimed the dog park water dish in hot weather, lying down in it and growling at any dog that approached for a drink, for instance). 

Generally it is no fun to own a dog who loves to start a fight, so I do think taking your questions to your vet would be a good start.  These dogs do like to control as much of the world as they can! Let us know what happens as you pursue options.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Kathryn

[sanford]

I have no personal experience with my own neutered males getting into fights,  but I’ve visited a number of dog parks here in the city and each one has a sign cautioning that owners of intact male dogs must take responsibility for their dog’s behavior, closely monitor them at all times and leave the park if their dogs act aggressively. 

This suggests to me that this bad behavior from intact males might be common, universal and ongoing. If true, I’m sorry to say that dog parks could be a problem for you and you might not be welcome in them.

Edited September 18, 2020 by sanford

[Andres]

Thanks for the answers!

Regarding neutering we're not saying that it's not going to happen, it most likely will, but that doesn't mean we're not giving it a thorough discussion as with anything that means a big change for Romeo. My main concern is that we don't want this behavior to be a motivation for neutering, we want to do the right thing with our best friend but with the right facts and expectations. Our vet agrees on neutering but at the same time he wants us to be sure about it as well and is open for second opinions. 10 months is also the age we were expecting to start talking about neutering anyways.

 

[Sam I Am]

 

Sam is the first male we have decided to keep intact, mostly for reasons of health. We never have and won’t take our dogs to off leash areas as there seem to be so many badly behaved owners and their untrained dogs. Having said that Sam has a few buddies he loves, a huge female Kuvasz and a male Polish Lowland sheepdog. Sam is a sweet good Cairn ...castration does not change the dogs personality. He does not mark in the house as we have trained him not to, much like any house training issues. Our vet is totally on board in keeping him intact as she knows we are responsible dog owners and the benefits that come along with keeping their hormones working (definitely a lot of different opinions on that.). Interestingly enough, in countries like Norway castration is illegal under their animal welfare program. Our previous  Cairn, Jock who was neutered was fairly aggressive towards other dogs where as Sam mostly ignores other dogs when we go for walks. Our female spayed Scotty on the other hand feels that other dogs should be put in their place...buts that’s a Scotty for you. 

Just a point of interest on articles that I have read, that neutered dogs can show aggression to intact males. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Sam I Am

[sanford]

Re your point That "neutered dogs can show aggression to intact males"... I've been told the same thing by a number of folks at my local dog park. I don't know if perhaps this is merely anecdotal, but it reminded me of something from Ruffy's younger days many years ago that I had forgotten about... He would sometimes get into a skirmish with intact males. It's always alarming to see 2 dogs going at each other but we were always able to jump in and quickly separate them, and it reached a point where I would visually check out the "status" of the other dogs before entering. Me and other owners even developed a nodding agreement -- one would not enter if the other was in there.

Edited September 18, 2020 by sanford

[Hillscreek]

I've owned dogs neutered and intact. If you want to show and/or breed then keep intact. 

For me to neuter or not was not so much about behavior as to prevent unwanted pups coming into the world. Hundreds of thousand of dogs are euthanized every day because owners are not responsible. 

My experience has been that hormones do encourage dominant behavior and a desire to mate with any female around. But that aside a dog's general personality and training plays a large part in their behavior.

Coming to cairns specifically my guy who was neutered got on with some on with some dogs and not with others. Of course being a cairn terrier he wished to be the most important dog around no matter the size of any others he might meet. He didn't like to back down but he seemed to come to an agreement with other dogs if allowed to be free to interact with them. I live in wild open land where he runs free on our walks. I noticed when we walked in town and he was on a leash all the time he was more tense when we met another dog. No chance to meet and greet doggy style.

If you have a chance update us on what you decide to do. It helps other cairn owners.

Good luck with Romeo!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andres]

UPDATE

So, we finally moved on with the neutering and thankfully. everything went well. It's been a month since the operation and Romeo's territoriality is now going back to the low levels before this madness peak. Same goes with becoming possessive around females and trying to eat alive males around them. I know there's some road ahead until it comes back to his "normal" self, which is, playful, alert, sweet and feisty when needed.

To be clear: two days before the operation, Romeo would attack ANY male around. The day before the operation he almost tore apart a Lab's ear. Going out was not only not being fun anymore, it was a scary situation. Now he might get into arguments with some very specific dogs (which are usually attacked by other dogs, so there's something "smelly" about them), but he's now playing with almost every male in the street.

Regarding neutering: I really appreciate all the comments. Please bare in mind that outside the States neutering is not a definitively mandatory and de facto practice. Some people are even quite vocal against it, while others are in favor. Vets are all about "it's your call". I guess it all comes down to a family talk, researching and making a decision. For us, the decision was "either he goes to parks and keeps being a very social dog that can play well with others, or keep his balls and stay out of the park and pray God that the next dog that crosses his path is not going to answer back", so it was quite simple. 

Some people (even relatives!!) made us feel really bad about ANY decision that we tried to make, so we just decided to focus on what's best for Romeo. 

Thank you all for your support!! 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Andres

[DogsSmarterThanMe]

Dixie is a female, 10 months old, and spayed.  She has just entered a phase where she is extremely territorial and jealous.  She is best friends with her husky sister unless husky dares to enter our master bedroom.  Then all bets are off and Dixie can be quite scary.   She gets scolded for this behaviour and I'm hoping it's just a phase.

[pkcrossley]

bed (and bedroom) politics with dogs is a very big subject --I think there could a fair number of posts here about it. evidently getting to sleep on the bed is a big status thing. for dogs not allowed to sleep right on the bed, sleeping in the room is the same --I'm closest to the big ones. I had a cairn who would get very vicious with anybody --a brother dog, a cat-- who tried to get on the bed. it got very hard to tolerate, but fortunately for me other dogs and cats learned to just stay away, and there was peace. I've read training books saying that it must never get to this stage. evidently "real" dog people have the dog in a crate overnight or sleeping by the hearth or something, which doesn't politicize the bedroom. 

cairns in my experience respond very acutely to space statements. if you get up and walk away when they get annoying, they understand that immediately, and it seems to work. time out was always big medicine was far as my cairns were concerned --they instantly understood that being confined to a space and closed out of another one had a certain meaning, and if they didn't want it they knew how to act. it kind of sounds here like Dixie needs to be ejected from the bedroom any time she gets to policing the space. scolding optional. if she resists getting ejected, then resort to normal anti-frenzy equipment like big gloves or a harness and short leash, and no fuss no muss make her lose her bedroom privileges. as I say, I've seen cairns respond to this kind of thing faster than other dogs do, and faster than cairns themselves respond to other kinds of intervention. 

[Andres]

UPDATE
So it’s been two months since Romeo’s operation and I can say that he’s back at the sweet, playful dog he used to be before by 90%! There’s still room for improvement and some “don’t try to steal my ball from my mouth” fights, but that’s it. In the street he would approach any male without a problem, neutered or not, and would play happily. Weirdly enough, he has a thing now for Golden Retriever pups, he just can’t stand them and would try to attack them, but ONLY that breed pups. Maybe it’s because they look so cute? Who knows.
Back on topic. The first month was a bit rough since he would eventually get into fights, but as days passed by, he would become more and more gentle with other dogs.. even when they taunt him! 

Thank you all for your support and advice, we really appreciate it. Here’s a current picture of happy Romeo!
 

[bradl]

Thank you for the update. Look at that cute face

[Kathryn]

I too am glad that all is working out. He is an adorable dog. What a smile!

[Hillscreek]

Romeo you are a handsome guy. 

So happy things are working out for all of you. May Romeo have a long and cheerful life and be a Best Friend Forever!

[sanford]

Romeo is one good-looking, happy pup!

As to his reaction to Golden’s... I’m aware that over the years, both my cairns seemed to have developed certain (minor) personality quirks, likes, dislikes, aversions, etc...

Perhaps just like his upright?

Edited December 20, 2020 by sanford

[pkcrossley]

he really is adorable!