Dogs and cats...

[DoubleTrouble]

Well, as our friend put it “who ever would have thought this would happen?”. But we now find ourselves struggling with our two 8-month-old cairns and our two 4-year-old cats. Our cats led a quiet and calm life until a few months ago when our cairns arrived. We have the pups in the kitchen area gated in, and the cats have the run of the rest of the house... yet what seems to be happening now is that the cats sit right outside the gate (those little stinkers are just trying to stir up trouble!) and drive the pups WILD. They try to tear the gate down, they bark and shriek and go insane... if a cat comes over the dogs will pounce on him. Always playful, never malicious, but the cats do not enjoy! I don’t mind that part so much, but the barking and screeching and tearing down the gates just has to stop... its making our peaceful home into a madhouse. And I can’t sit down because I am constantly having to deal with this issue. I guess we should have known this would happen... but now we are not sure how to handle this!! Any ideas about how to help them get along, or at least how to calm down the pups so they don’t have a complete meltdown every time they see a cat walk by? Should we be trying to integrate (exposure therapy??) or should we just find a way to keep the cats separate? Help! Thanks to you all, this site is SO helpful, I appreciate it!

[Idaho Cairns]

Just off the top of my head, I think keeping the dogs and cats separate will simply extend the misery--those Cairns, determined little canines, will probably never stop or never be forced to stop attacking that barrier you have erected and will continue to raise the dickens verbally.
I think I would simply open the house to the cats and dogs and see how long it takes for the dogs to accept the cats as fellow companions. 
I'm sure the first few minutes, hours, days might be total chaos but eventually the chase will probably lessen and perhaps stop.  At least the cats, being full grown, can probably escape the worse behavior of the puppies by hiding out somewhere in the home--up high.

In your favor, both dogs are young--not set in their ways making the possible detente' much more likely.
Good luck and, yes, I do understand that my advice runs the risk of mayhem in YOUR home and I don't have to face the consequences of my potentially bad advice.

[sanford]

Is Double Trouble's post for real? If I'm wrong, please forgive me, but it's so over the top, I've got a (literally) funny feeling that we are being punk'd with a very funny hoax! Just picturing it almost makes me lose my mind. If I lived in your house, I'd be barking and shrieking too!

Edited January 28, 2019 by sanford

[Guest dog person]

Some dogs can be aggressive toward cats and other small animals and can cause significant harm and injury, even death.

Some terriers as well as other breeds have a high prey drive and cannot live with cats.

Have you considered rehoming the pups while they are still young?     It would be difficult but if they can't get along? Assuming you are not able to resolve these issues.

Are they neutered/spayed?   This may have a calming effect.

I am concerned as to how uncomfortable the cats must be.  After all, they were there first. 

You could call the nearest  Cairn Rescue group and I think they would be able to help you.     Good luck

Edited January 28, 2019 by dog person

[Sam I Am]

D I haven’t had cats for a long time but I think I would go the rout of Idaho’s suggestion. Keeping these little terrorists penned away might just be ramping up the situation. When I had my two cats I owned a German Shepard and an old English Sheepdog. The GS came into the house as a very rambunctious pup who would launch himself at the cats. Jessie the GS soon found out that the cats were a force to be reckoned with and as all pups she learned her lesson. The cats just seeked  higher ground when thinks got to much. I wouldn’t worry to much about the felines, I would be more concerned about the pups getting their eyes scratched. For me after a relatively short time the cats and dogs just became part of the household, however the funny thing was if a stray cat came onto the property both dogs would go after them. 

And as a side note with all three Cairns we have owned (minus a cat) the carrying on with barking and the Cairn screech of death is pretty normal for  a Cairn pup. It takes a couple of years for most Cairns to settle down.

[Hillscreek]

In our house every new pup was quickly taught how to behave by the resident cats. Pup runs up ready to chase, play or what ever. Cat stands ground bops the pup on the nose and that is usually the end of it.

 I'd do as Idaho suggests. The cats will be offended and annoyed and upset at their lives being messed up but they will deal with it. It might be noisy and disrupting for a time but likely they will come to an agreement.

Never had trouble with our cats and dogs together but both will not tolerate some other cat visiting.

The screeching barking and carrying on is cairn natural behavior. I doubt it will stop as long as the cats are taunting them.

I would not want to rehome the pups until I had tried everything I could first. Give them time and they will likely all settle.

[bradl]

Like others my experience has been that *on average* they eventually sort things out.

Barrier frustration and "fence fighting" is a thing. I agree that uncorking this particular bottle will probably release the pressure. 

I would give the cats multiple escape routes, monitor closely at first to stop the dog from killing one if it turns out that's their unwavering intent, and let them attempt to sort it out.  I would probably do it one dog at a time at first for a while and once both have proven reliable separately then monitor again once they are all loose together to make sure the dogs aren't plotting to tag-team.

It is true that some dogs (terriers some of them) simply cannot tolerate cats. While such Cairns undoubtedly exist, from anecdotal reports from the dog people I talk with I tend to suspect other off-brand terriers  of being more likely to be intolerant. 

Risk may be minimal, but it is not zero. Standard disclaimers apply. Ultimately it's your call.

[DoubleTrouble]

Thank you ALL! I have to admit, I read the first few responses and started to freak out. We are not planning to re-home the pups (we have already fallen in love with them), and I wish I was punking you - but unfortunately this is our life right now!  Thank you Idaho for your initial helpful and encouraging response, and to everyone else who followed.  Having two puppies has turned out to be harder than expected - it seems to be interfering with housetraining, and other training, and the jumping and screeching at the cats has been just the cherry on top.  However, we are steadfast in trying to make this work for us, and for our kids and our cats, because I grew up with cairns and they are the only breed I even considered! I think the issue has been that because of housetraining issues, we haven't let them free in the house too much just yet, they are still rather confined to the kitchen/living room area.  So it may be that we need to tackle one issue at a time and get them trained so that they can run around the rest of the house, and let the cats get used to them. I have to say, one cat seems rather unphased (maybe even entertained?) when they pounce on him.  He keeps coming back into their enclosure, so he can't be THAT terrified, right? The other has become more bold as well.. so I think the cats realize they aren't going to get mauled.  They seem to be doing better. It's harder for the people who have to listen to the chaos every time the cats turn that corner.  But it's very helpful to know that this is normal cairn behavior, and perhaps may settle down with time. They are not spayed yet, we were told to let them go through one cycle first... so maybe that will also make a difference?  Thanks to you all, we really appreciate your insight and suggestions! We'll get started on the hard work and keep you posted!!

[sanford]

Ok... Ok. I admit it! I got it wrong, Double Trouble, and I sincerely apologize for making light of your situation!

Many folks write in to this forum because they have their hands full with one cairn puppy. With your two cats, you have four hands full! As you know, house-training 2 pups at the same time is a guaranteed tall order. At least you are cairn-experienced, so that will help get you through. To try to make amends for my first comments, I'd like to say that your second post is wonderfully revealing of your positive attitude. Loving cairns as I do, I'm always gratified for folks like you, who are able to enrich the lives of their cairns by having a pair of them. As companions, they will give each other delightful things that us uprights never can. 

Be sure to send us photos when you are able!

Edited January 28, 2019 by sanford

[Idaho Cairns]

Double Trouble, keep reciting the mantra--"Cairns are intelligent and Cairns are flexible" over and over.  I think in another four or five months you should have the problems well in hand.  Cats are survivors and I would let them and the pups make whatever "separate peace" they work out among themselves develop.  It should be interesting.
As a positive, I have never heard of a Cairn killing a cat--ever.  I'm sure it probably has happened but it must be rare or I would have heard. 
Have fun.

[Sam I Am]

 

[Hillscreek]

Great video Terrier lover. Cat knows how to set the boundaries - that's just what our cats did.

[Kathryn]

I have to add my support for the "exposure therapy" you and others have mentioned.  I have had cats and cairns in the same house, and they all eventually got along, or at least tolerated each other.  I started by giving them limited exposure to each other, with room to get away, under my supervision (much like the video above). Usually the cat had the upper hand, and could jump onto a counter or disappear under furniture away from the dog when she tired of the romp.  With exposure, the game seemed less interesting to both cat and dog, and it did get quieter.

Though  not quiet, I should add.  I do think the cats are often the  instigators: my cat (Rags, now long gone) had the habit of glancing across the living room, spying a sleeping cairn on the couch, and deciding the world was a little too quiet for her.  She would cross the room, swat at the sleeping cairn, and then lead a merry chase through the house until she tired of it, when she would jump up onto the counter and stare down at a very frustrated dog...

With puppies, you are setting the standards for how you expect them to behave, and a good inter-species training program along with housebreaking and other command training seems appropriate.  I would work on it every day just like everything else and in time I think you will look back on all this chaos as just part of puppyhood.

I do admire you, though, for taking on two puppies at a time!  I am training just one right now, and that is more than enough for me...

[oscar's mom]

Chance my cat was 5 years old when Oscar came home.  I would hold Oscar in my hands like a baby and let Chance come smell and check him out.  When Oscar was free in the house, Chance would come "tag" him and run off to higher areas.  I would say Chance spent 6 months up high, only coming down to play with the dog on his terms.   

[remltr]

I don't have cats, so no special help there. My first and only thought was to drape the gate with a towel so they can't see each other. Maybe until you decide to follow the advice of the folks with experience.

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

Make sure you have tall cat trees that the cats can escape to...also I have an iron baby gate to the hallway entrance so the cat can jump over and escape the Cairns...I also have an iron baby gate closing off the kitchen and family room so the Cairns are confined to that area as well...once the cat runs all hell breaks loose!  My 7 year old Ragdoll has learned not to run - now he hangs out with the Cairns in his special safe place (our bedroom) and even sleeps on the bed with them.  I do have tall cat trees in every open space (1 in bedroom, 1 in living room, 1 in hallway, 1 in family room). 

[Guest dog person]

This is the only gate that my 20 pound cairn cannot jump over or knock down, it is 44 inches in height 

It has lasted 5 years so far, recently a screw broke (metal fatigue) and I took my time went to the hardware store and was able to fix it myself for less than $1

https://www.chewy.com/midwest-woodwire-mesh-pet-gate-24/dp/45655

The 3 foot gate (baby gate) I use when I go out to the mailbox, he can easily jump over it and hurt my smaller dog if he decides to.

They have the permanent gates you can install that are user friendly, however if they are not tall enough, I wouldn't bother. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by dog person

[sanford]

A 44" high gate sounds good. We used a 32" high gate, but Ruffy scaled it - twice! He used the mesh cross sections as footholds. Whether or not he can defeat a 44" high gate I have no idea, but I wouldn't put it past him - or any determined cairn!

However, the gates would probably work for pups who are too young and small to manage.

[DoubleTrouble]

Hello again! I just wanted to send my sincere thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond to my question. I now have some ideas to try out, and some hope that this will be manageable!! I loved the video that was posted, and the ideas about exposure therapy as well as a draped towel (we’ve tried it!). And Sanford, no worries at all- I am sure to an outsider the first thought would be “who in their right mind would do such a thing!!” It sounds like there start of a crazy movie.. but we did it, and we are determined to make it work! My husband and I both work, so we wanted them to have company during the day.. and I think this has been so good for them. In the end we love these ladies (Brownie and Mabel), as well as our cats, so we’ll get this sorted out! Thanks again all, great advice! Nice to be in a forum with so many others who love their cairns - even when they drive us bonkers!!!

[DoubleTrouble]

And here they are... in all their cat-stalking glory! You can also see the top of the 2nd cat’s head on the stairs behind gate...

 

i will look into these gate ideas- one of the cairns has already scaled several gates. They are so strong and agile!! Thanks for all of the suggestions!

[Guest dog person]

Here is another idea, just google wooden frame screen doors.    I know it worked for a neighbor of mine that had several cats and a couple of dogs.

 Edit:  Oops, that link didn't work, try this one    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Screen-Tight-5-Bar-White-Vinyl-Hinged-Screen-Door-Common-36-in-x-80-in-Actual-36-in-x-80-in/3371362

Or something like it.

Edited January 29, 2019 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

That tuxedo cat looks like he is not afraid of anything!  He's a bit annoyed though...

[Sam I Am]

D they are obviously very much on their way to excepting each other as per your photo. Once you have the housebreaking down pat I bet there will be very  few issues.  Also those cats sure don’t seem overly worried to me. Lovely looking girls by the way. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Terrier lover

[sanford]

I just remembered... We resorted to something we (mistakenly!) thought might keep Ruffy away from the baby gate. Online was an ad for plastic floor mats to put down in front of the gates as a deterrent. The surface was covered with raised, fairly sharp points, designed to be too uncomfortable for the dog to step on - in effect, creating a "no-man's land" on Ruffy's side of the gate. We ordered the mat by mail and when it arrived, we discovered that the raised points were so rigid, sharp, and painful, the dog was likely to be injured, so we threw it away. 

Chalk up one more victory for Ruffy... and another big fat zero for us. Foiled again by this little pipsqueak!

Edited January 29, 2019 by sanford

[Hillscreek]

What lovely looking pups. My guess is cats and dogs will sort things out. May take "double"time like everything with two pups but as time goes on you'll look back and laugh. As opposed to right now when you look at them and comes to mind all too easily