Unexplained Panic Attacks

[parmelbe]

Hi, all,

Betsy has been having a little bit of trouble lately with nightly nervous breakdowns a little bit after dinner. She already has some storm and rain phobia and will hide, pant, and in extreme cases dig. Lately she’s been exhibiting these compulsive behaviors for seemingly no reason almost every night at approximately the same time. We’ve been ignoring it aside from removing any potential sources of harm in case she’s just doing it for attention, but that seems unlikely.

She’s getting to be around 8-9 years old, vet says she’s in good health aside from some dental issues, and she gets about an hour of solid exercise a day. We’ve been teaching commands and she loves performing for treats. 

Has anyone seen this in their pups?

[sanford]

I wonder if it's something environmental. If you live in an attached house or apartment, it could be a neighbor's electronic or audio equipment, etc. Do you have any new devices on the premises or in the basement? Depending on the severity, there are calming OTC or prescription meds from your vet.

    It's very disturbing behavior to witness. They are inconsolable when these episodes happen. I hope you find a remedy!

Edited January 16, 2019 by sanford

[parmelbe]

Thanks. It is definitely tough to see. We moved into our new house in August but she seemed to have settled in okay. This behavior started a week or so ago. We also added a second dog to the fam, but again that was more than 4 months ago now. 

We keep the Wi-Fi router downstairs and use Philips Hue connected lights but those have been installed since the move. There has been construction in our neighborhood for the past month or so but they’re always finished well before Betsy’s incidents start  

Could this be an age-related thing? I’m definitely going to try some supplements and dietary additions to see if that helps. The recent obedience training has made her much more confident than she used to be so these sudden terrors are that much more confusing. She’s a rescue so past trauma is definitely a possibility. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by parmelbe

[Sam I Am]

There have been other posts in the past with dogs getting similar reactions at approximately the same time during the night. I wish I could remember as it was a while back but I think it landed up as an environmental issue or electrical or? If anyone on this site can remember please direct P to the posts.

One thing that totally worked for us with Rosie getting uptight with long distant vacation drives was this product https://www.adaptil.com/ca_en. I know there will be a certain person that will down arrow this however for us it surprisingly worked. We sprayed her bed that we put in our truck and her kerchief we put around her neck and believe or not right from the first time we used it it worked....thank goodness other wise it would have been a stressed out Scottie for hours on end. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Terrier lover

[Guest dog person]

1 hour ago, parmelbe said:

Hi, all,

Betsy has been having a little bit of trouble lately with nightly nervous breakdowns a little bit after dinner. She already has some storm and rain phobia and will hide, pant, and in extreme cases dig. Lately she’s been exhibiting these compulsive behaviors for seemingly no reason almost every night at approximately the same time. We’ve been ignoring it aside from removing any potential sources of harm in case she’s just doing it for attention, but that seems unlikely.

She’s getting to be around 8-9 years old, vet says she’s in good health aside from some dental issues, and she gets about an hour of solid exercise a day. We’ve been teaching commands and she loves performing for treats. 

Has anyone seen this in their pups?

Has she had lab work done?       Important to rule out all medical causes.

I  would take care of the dental issues (x-rays, cleaning and extractions as needed)

She may be exhibiting early signs of dementia.  Yes, dogs get dementia and the symptoms tend to strike at night.

Talk to your vet about treatment options such as medication.

Supplements are not medication and not only are they ineffective and a waste of money, some are not benign and can cause harm.

Again, please discuss with your vet.  Best of luck.

[Guest dog person]

https://dogdementia.com/treatment/

I found this site helpful, mostly the comments, when I went through this with my Peke that lived to be 16, the last 2-3 years were rough.

PS:   Keep an eye on how she is getting along with the new dog. 

I would separate them with a gate when you are not there.

Better to be safe than sorry.

I say this because it is not unusual for a younger dog to attack a senior.

Edited January 16, 2019 by dog person

[Idaho Cairns]

" She already has some storm and rain phobia and will hide, pant, and in extreme cases dig. Lately she’s been exhibiting these compulsive behaviors for seemingly no reason almost every night at approximately the same time."  parmelbe

Check your television schedule or your computer/i-pad/i-phone usage during those times--we have experienced some extreme nervous reaction from our daughter's Cairn to, believe it or not, the sounds from the quiz show Jeapordy -- she could not tolerate being in the same room when that show was aired--it terrified her.  Our older Cairn reacted very nervously to the notification pings on one of our cell phones and we had to test several types of those pings before we found one that did not bother her.
I would suggest, given the regular timing of the problem that it is environmental, driven by something that is regularly going on in the home at that time. Could be a commercial on television, a electronic, electrical device, perhaps even something like a furnace fan or air conditioner that cycles at that particular time.  Should be interesting to try and figure it out--even if it is something you can't see or, especially, hear, the dog's acuteness to sounds and/or sights could be driving the behavior.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Idaho Cairns

[Kathryn]

I think Idaho's suggestions about environmental factors -- particularly sounds you might not hear, or vibrations -- are worth checking out thoroughly. One of our dogs, now gone, spent about a week fussing off and on at an unseen problem or issue.  She was really nervous, panting, pacing, etc. We eventually realized we had a battery failing, and its alert sound was well above our hearing -- but not above hers.  

Our furnace has an electronic ignition, and it sends off a very high-pitched squeal just before starting which irritates our current dog.  He barks to let us know it is happening and acts agitated, but we have never figured out what to do about the sound.  We live in Minnesota and need the furnace...

Because this happens with your dog at a specific time, I would be sensitive to what is happening around you. If you take her away for this time period, is she still anxious? Perhaps you could take her outside for a long walk at this time, or to visit a friend, and see if the behavior persists.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Kathryn

[sanford]

8 hours ago, dog person said:

Supplements are not medication and not only are they ineffective and a waste of money, some are not benign and can cause harm.

We are all entitled to our opinions here, but sweeping generalizations are not helpful. Some dogs (and people) benefit from some supplements, and some don't. Besides, with dogs, there is no placebo effect. They either work, or they don't.

Edited January 17, 2019 by sanford

[Guest dog person]

Regarding  the "placebo effect", some of you may enjoy this article.    Thoughts and opinions welcomed.    Excerpt below:

"What is a placebo?"

"Animals receiving inert treatments may show improvement due to causes other than direct placebo effects."

 https://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/what-is-a-placebo/

"In veterinary patients, placebo effects are obtained mostly by proxy through caregivers.  This creates an additional ethical challenge, as caregivers may perceive benefits the patients are not actually experiencing. This makes the necessity of objective research validation for treatment efficacy even more critical in veterinary medicine."

Edited January 17, 2019 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

"Caregiver Placebo Effect"

A two minute video on the subject.  Enjoy!

https://www.americanveterinarian.com/videos/caregiver-placebo-effect

 

[Sam I Am]

P I hope you find out what is bothering your girl Betsy in the middle of the night as your post was asking for  advice and other peoples experiences with similar issues. It looks like this post has been totally side tracked...again. Hopefully you will get your answers to what is causing these panic attacks . Given other people’s experience with this problem it does sound like something environmental it’s just finding out what sounds or ?  occurs  around the same time each night. 

[Guest dog person]

Attention Bradl:

Please feel free to move my last two comments to a new thread titled "Caregiver Placebo Effect" if you think it is off topic?

I felt the conversation was flowing naturally and the content was related.  Poster asked about supplements leading to opinions on supplements and whether they are effective or not, leading to caregiver placebo effect.

In my other posts in this thread I have shared my experience with doggie dementia, the behavior described sounds like the early stages of what my dog went through.   The only thing that helped was medication prescribed by my vet.   I tried various supplements but they did not do the trick.

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by dog person

[LindaMC]

Have you thought about giving Betsy CBD Oil?  

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/cbd-oil-for-dogs/

[Hillscreek]

Would agree that with regular timing it might well be something she can hear but above human range. I tried out those "silent" whistles with one of my retrievers. She certainly could hear it and I couldn't. I give up with it because I couldn't be sure I was whistling what I thought I was.

But of course it could be something else - so very frustrating. Hope you can find the answer and share with us.

Regarding the placebo effect. Seems to me it doesn't matter if it is that and not the medication. If it helps that's good. The mind is a power over the body. "Take a sip of this my dear and you will feel better" and often we do feel better even if the medicine is not a regular prescription.

[Guest dog person]

"Regarding the placebo effect. Seems to me it doesn't matter if it is that and not the medication. If it helps that's good. The mind is a power over the body. "Take a sip of this my dear and you will feel better" and often we do feel better even if the medicine is not a regular prescription".

You may feel better, but the dog doesn't, and the disease process continues.     "Caregiver Placebo Effect"

Best to work with a vet that you trust rather than trying these various homeopathic remedies.   That has been my experience.

PS: I am not going to post on this thread again as you folks are not receptive to the science based information I have provided.   Maybe some of the lurkers will benefit.

Best of luck

Edited January 17, 2019 by dog person

[Idaho Cairns]

" Best to work with a vet that you trust rather than trying these various homeopathic remedies."

Well, that's certainly a "one size fits all" solution to the problem but, within my budget, running to the vet for every semi-normal situation with my two Cairns is not an option.  I'm sure my vet, who sees my dogs on a very irregular basis would be willing to make a conjecture about what my dogs are experiencing, take x-rays, postulate on causes and slap me with a $300.00 charge.
When it comes to forums like this one, which aims (I think) to discuss our pets, their antics, behaviors, and illnesses, of course "taking them to the vet for answers" is always an obvious option but is it realistic?
Invoking the "visit the vet" clearly absolves us, as owners, of any mistakes and misdiagnoses but  it is an expensive safety valve for most of us.  Further, playing the vet card trumps any of our attempts to help a poster with our experience with the Cairn Terrier--like it or not "discuss with your vet" shunts most of the discussions into being irrelevant--what good is my advice to any of you if you insist on arguing that we should always take the dog to the vet?

[Guest dog person]

23 minutes ago, Idaho Cairns said:

" Best to work with a vet that you trust rather than trying these various homeopathic remedies."

Well, that's certainly a "one size fits all" solution to the problem but, within my budget, running to the vet for every semi-normal situation with my two Cairns is not an option.  I'm sure my vet, who sees my dogs on a very irregular basis would be willing to make a conjecture about what my dogs are experiencing, take x-rays, postulate on causes and slap me with a $300.00 charge.
When it comes to forums like this one, which aims (I think) to discuss our pets, their antics, behaviors, and illnesses, of course "taking them to the vet for answers" is always an obvious option but is it realistic?
Invoking the "visit the vet" clearly absolves us, as owners, of any mistakes and misdiagnoses but  it is an expensive safety valve for most of us.  Further, playing the vet card trumps any of our attempts to help a poster with our experience with the Cairn Terrier--like it or not "discuss with your vet" shunts most of the discussions into being irrelevant--what good is my advice to any of you if you insist on arguing that we should always take the dog to the vet?

Yes, that is the reality today.   It is expensive to own a pet.   Trying suggestions for serious medical conditions from strangers on the internet is a recipe for disaster.

My advice is to RULE OUT medical issues first, this may involve a checkup, lab work, x-rays     Then listen to people's advice on forums, but consult your vet first before implementing.      Most vets don't charge for phone calls if you are a regular client.

If you are spending less than $500 a year for routine veterinary care per dog you are extremely fortunate, keep that vet!

At least go for an annual exam and recommended testing at that time.

Edited January 17, 2019 by dog person

[Idaho Cairns]

" My advice is to RULE OUT medical issues first, this may involve a checkup, lab work, x-rays     Then listen to people's advice on forums, but consult your vet first before implementing.      Most vets don't charge for phone calls if you are a regular client."

But wait, in a review of your postings, whether the thread is about a physical condition or a behavioral problem you suggest "consult a vet" in almost every response.  Now you suggest ruling out medical issues after championing the idea that medical issues might be behind every behavioral change?  I'm confused, having assumed you would always consult a vet for advice if you had a concern and  recommending that we should follow the same dictate you then claim your advice is to "RULE OUT medical issues"?  Further, are you comfortable with following a vet's phone diagnosis without that vet seeing your Cairn?  To paraphrase the old "woodchuck chuck"--"How much good could a vet vet if a good vet could vet telephoneically?
Here's the rub with the "see a vet" thing--not only is it prohibitively expensive for most of us, it is, based on your postings (as I read them), to be undertaken under most "problem" situations so along with the expense we have to multiply the cost by frequency.  Surely you see the problem with the "vet fixation" for most owners and especially contributors on this forum.  We hope, of course, to be good stewards of our Cairns and certainly hope we can spot serious vet necessary issues in our charges before they become chronic and/or dangerous.  Meantime we struggle along here trying to help each other with advice based on our experience with these little dogs in run of the mill, everyday contexts, most of which does not call for vet intervention (we hope).

Edited January 18, 2019 by Idaho Cairns

[Sam I Am]

I would like to also point out that in our area most vets (large and small) will not hand out information over the phone due to the legality of a miss diagnosis plus veterinarians are now feeling compelled to go the full gamete in testing which will save them from any kind of legal action. This can run into the thousands of dollars. A mere ultrasound in our area is anywhere from $400-$600 that does not include the office visit, meds etc. To constantly feel that every illness is either a mental or physical crisis that needs veterinarians care is very prohibitive for most people. As Betsy has already had a clean bill of health from her vet why would her owner and most owners ask for more testing ?  And that’s what I love about this forum........the sharing of experiences and ideas with a caring group of people who love their Cairns.  We all have different ideas on everything from diets, supplements etc and that’s a good thing...at least in my world.

 

[Guest dog person]

I prefer to go by what the veterinary healthcare professionals advise.  

To each his own...  Everyone has a right to have different preferences or make different choices.

https://www.vetinfo.com/medical-causes-canine-anxiety.html

Medical Causes of Canine Anxiety     

There are many reasons why your dog may present signs of canine anxiety like compulsive behavior, pacing or destructive behavior. Psychological difficulties such as separation anxiety are quite common, but it is most important that you begin by ruling out a medical problem as the cause of your dog's anxiety. Here are some frequently reported medical causes for canine anxiety:

Hypothyroidism

Hypothyroidism is sometimes a cause of anxious behavior in dogs. Hypothyroidism is a disorder that appears when your dog's thyroid gland produces less than the normal amount of thyroid hormone. Look for signs of the other symptoms associated with hypothyroidism such as; weight gain, hair loss, or lethargy. If you see these symptoms take your dog to the vet for a blood test of thyroid hormone levels.

Thyrotoxicosis

The symptoms of thyrotoxicosis are also associated with a rare auto immune disorder called Grave's Disease involving enlargement of the thyroid gland. Several other very rare but dangerous conditions are associated with symptoms of Hypothyroidism and thyrotoxicosis so consult your vet quickly if you see these symptoms.

Encephalitis

Encephalitis is an inflammation of your dog's brain tissue. This swelling is usually caused by one of several types of infection which may enter the brain in various ways, such as an insect bite or bacterial infection starting in the neck and / or nasal cavities. Herpesvirus has been found to cause viral encephalitis but it most often begins with viral canine distemper. Aggressive behavior is linked with encephalitis and other symptoms to watch for along with the anxiety are coma, seizures and clumsy gait.

Pre-Diabetes

Consider the possibility of diabetes or pre-diabetes if you see any of the following symptoms accompanying your dog's anxiety:

• Sudden unusual weight loss even though your dog has a good appetite and eats normally.
• Excessive thirst or a noticeable increase in water consumption.
• Appearance of cataracts in the eyes or other signs of visual deficit or impairment.
• Take your dog to the vet immediately if you see several or all of these symptoms. Delay could threaten your dog's life.

Hearing Loss

Dogs afflicted with hearing loss become anxious mainly because they startle easily. They may fail to hear simple commands and look like they are ignoring you. Hearing impaired dogs can also seem to be misbehaving. They may snarl or snap for no discernible reason when you come near them. You may falsely believe this behavior is ‘negative' or ‘aggressive' if you haven't considered possible hearing loss. Perhaps your dog just can't hear someone coming up behind her and is therefore startled in these situations. Sharp, sudden vibrations will also startle a hearing impaired dog. Of course your vet can test your dog's hearing and treat any related behavioral or medical problems.

Edited January 18, 2019 by dog person

[Sam I Am]

17 hours ago, dog person said:

 

PS: I am not going to post on this thread again as you folks are not receptive to the science based information I have provided.   Maybe some of the lurkers will benefit 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Terrier lover

[Guest dog person]

1 hour ago, Terrier lover said:

 

Well, maybe if you folks stopped baiting me by misinterpreting my comments, misconstruing my words,  giving me the downward arrows.

I would stop responding!   LOL  

BTW: I lied.   If I feel I have something to contribute and it may help someone I will speak.   

Maybe I'll try the ignore button option.      I have appointments today so I won't be on anyway 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by dog person

[Kathryn]

An open appeal for common sense:

I know some of us have been gritting our teeth every time someone here asks for some help with their cairn terrier - advice about behavior, or worries about health, or just questions from an owner who dearly loves his or her dog...because it seems so often our heartfelt support and advice are overridden by curt responses to "see your veterinary professional first." We grit our teeth because such responses DO cut off conversation, particularly when such responses hijack the conversation, dismiss our suggestions, and take the thread in a different direction entirely. 

These responses also make some of us feel belittled, and do seem to imply we do not have anything to offer other forum members. Yet the truth is that there are hundreds of years of practical advice among the members of this forum, and a sense of community around our dogs that feels threatened with such negativity.

Most of us didn't raise our kids first or solely on the advice of pediatricians.  When our kids started with the tantrums, lying on that department store floor and kicking feet and screaming (you all gotta remember, right?), we didn't immediately take that child in for a brain scan to rule out a brain tumor.  Instead, we read books on child development and stages, we talked to our parents and friends, we tried a few parenting techniques that worked, we hoped this would pass -- and we tried to keep our sense of humor...and it almost never ever is a brain tumor.

When our kids woke up in the middle of the night throwing up, we didn't call the ambulance.  We put a wet cloth on their neck, offered a little ginger ale, got them back in bed, and kept them home from school the next day, feeding them a BRAT diet and letting them play games on the tablet. The police never showed up at the door insisting we were committing child abuse. 

I have a four-month-old puppy who right now is doing the equivalent of throwing "terrible twos" tantrums.  I have had 4 other cairns.  I have seen this before. We will train him gently, and he will grow out of it.  He doesn't have a brain tumor either. But if Angus had been my first cairn, I might have been surprised by the intensity of this little dog, and his strong insistence that the world should operate according to his "druthers" and whims. I would have valued the opinions of experienced cairn owners here.  Heck - I still value the opinions and suggestions of experienced cairn owners here. They help me keep my sense of humor...

With our kids -- and with our dogs -- we each have to make the decision about when to go to a medical professional.  If you know anyone in the medical field (I do, as I have several doctors in my family), you have heard that one of their greatest frustrations is the folks who come in with recognizable symptoms of minor issues which could be cared for with rest, liquids and maybe a little tylenol. Each of us has to make the call when or whether to see a medical professional, whether for ourselves, or kids or our dogs. For most of us, the first step is not rushing off to a doctor but rather observing carefully, treating with common sense and the equivalent for the situation at hand of "rest and liquids." And then, if the situation still warrants it, making the call to visit a doctor. But not always...or even most of the time.

And, in this country, whether for dogs or people, decisions to access medical care do include consideration of the high cost of medical attention. Just a fact. 

The internet has made it possible for folks to remain anonymous if they choose, and also to bait others, be negative, act superior, etc. -- all those behaviors we would never take on if someone knew our name.  That does seem to be happening here.  I don't understand the reasons for it, and I guess I don't care. But I hope we all recognize it and don't rise to the bait.  Simple solution. Get a sense of humor. Laugh it off. Not my circus; not my monkeys. Common sense.

Cairntalk folks, I enjoy this place. I value you. I love hearing about your dogs.  You have given me some great advice and some caring support over the 15 years I have been around, and gotten me through a couple of hard times. Wow - thanks. 

Now, having said this, I am going back to take photos of the rest of my cairn collections.  Look for photos shortly in a different thread.

 

[Sam I Am]

Wise words Kathryn.  I feel the same. Thank you.