Puppy Biting

[Smarts1969]

Our beatiful 5 month old Cairn Terrier boy, Bailey has very recently developed a couple of very worrying trends.  The first is that on regular basis he will launch himself at me and wrap his mouth around whatever part of my body he can (usually the arms or the legs), and even though I give him the off command he will not cease from doing it.  I've tried all variants of this, from folding my arms and turning my back on him, to walking out of the room, only for him to start again the instant I return.  The other thing is that though we tether him in the back seat of the car he will launch himself at whoever is sitting with him on the back seat and similarly wrap his mouth around whatever part of the body he can.  We don't really understand why he has become like this as for the majority of the time he is so loving and acts up terribly when someone leaves the house.

[Guest dog person]

Is he teething?    Try a raw carrot, you can freeze it and it will last longer.     Be careful about leaving him alone when he is upset, they can be quite destructive.    I would gate him in a small room (puppy proofed) and give him a raw carrot to keep him occupied for a bit while you leave.    Keep an eye on this behavior, some dogs develop separation anxiety and you may want to discuss treatment options with your vet.

PS: Don't use those baby carrots, they are chemically treated and can be a choking hazard due to their size.  

 

[Smarts1969]

7 minutes ago, dog person said:

Is he teething?    Try a raw carrot, you can freeze it and it will last longer.     Be careful about leaving him alone when he is upset, they can be quite destructive.    I would gate him in a small room (puppy proofed) and give him a raw carrot to keep him occupied for a bit while you leave.    Keep an eye on this behavior, some dogs develop separation anxiety and you may want to discuss treatment options with your vet.

PS: Don't use those baby carrots, they are chemically treated and can be a choking hazard due to their size.  

 

We think he is still teething even though a fair few of his adult teeth have come through now.  He's been biting really ever since he began his teething and we've tried all the methods to try and stop him from doing so without any success.  He's the first male Cairn that we've had (previously had three females) and he's been the hardest to train up.  He does have someone here during the day, but it's when I return from work that he get's over-excited and starts to bite me.  We have given him raw carrots, but this hasn't really had any success.

[sanford]

I have no experience with puppies. I can only offer info I've picked up on this site:

You might have already tried what others have done - shove a soft toy in his mouth and hold it there - not easy to do with a resisting, wriggling puppy - and repeat it 15 times (!) for it to take effect. We must be more persistent than they are! Cairns can be notoriously determined to get their way and don't easily give up.  Another method mentioned here is a spritz of water from a spray bottle when he launches at you or is mouthy.

During my 8 years with Ruffy, from age 3 to 11, mysterious changes in behavior have come and then gone over time. As was the case with Ruffy, this will hopefully be a passing phase with Bailey.

Even if I just briefly step out, Ruffy gets over-excited when I return, grabbing.a toy, he gets the zoomies for about 5 minutes, and unable to contain himself, proceeds to demolish it, leaving a trail of stuffing all over the place!😀

[Sam I Am]

Sam did and still occasionally does the mouthing thing...doesn’t put any pressure on to hurt but it is annoying...and usually he is over excited from me coming home. What works really well is a spray bottle with water in it. A few gentle squirts in his direction and a firm no and the behaviour is totally gone. Now all I have to do is pick up the bottle and he just sits very politely while I greet him.😉

[Smarts1969]

Must admit we haven't tried the soft toy trick, but we have done the spritz of water and it had not effect whatsoever.  We are fast reaching breaking point with him as nothing seems to be working and if anything he is getting worse to the point where we are seriously considering giving him up.  We'd rather not go down this path though, but we just don't really know what we can do.  It's so upsetting.

[Guest dog person]

Is he getting enough exercise?

I have found that a one hour walk every morning (same time) goes a long way to calming a dog down.

Also, around the 2 year, 2  1/2 year mark I noticed a significant decrease in problematic behaviors.

PS:  Is he neutered?     It is up to you, but you may want to discuss with your vet.    It may have a calming effect,  assuming that you have no intention of breeding him.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by dog person

[sanford]

Knowing that you had 3 cairns in the past, tells me that you are experienced enough to evaluate that something unusual might be going on re the behavior of this pup.Perhaps your vet could determine if it's neurological or physical?

Yet, giving him up is such a serious, sad thing to have to do. If the breeder won't take him back, I would suggest surrendering him to a Cairn Rescue group. ( Colonal Potter,  among others). When they accept a new dog, their experienced volunteers foster and work with the new dogs.

i hope it doesn't come to that.

[bradl]

Cairn puppies with their needle teeth can be wearying but with patience, discipline, and perhaps a stout pair of gloves this phase can usually be outlived. The Cairn Relief Fund is probably more geographically useful for a Cheltenham Cairn, should it come to that.

[Guest dog person]

I got my cairn at about 7 months,  he was a terror, still is, sometimes  :-/     He is now 5.      He picked up the scent of a mole (I think) outside last night when he was out for a bathroom break and he wanted to dig and dig.   He was quite annoyed with me when I said  ENOUGH!   But he listened, growled at me but went back to doing his business and came inside.      You have to be patient but firm with them.    Like I said, long walks.

A tired dog is a well behaved dog.

 He can be very sweet and calm too,  I can't get angry at him, he seems to have a strong prey drive and I think of him as a dominant male.

Sounds like you have one too.     Hope it works out.

PS:  This toy is about the only one he hasn't been able to destroy, he gets bored with it, then goes back to it.  He used to chew on it.

You can throw it and play fetch, he also likes to play fetch with a hard rubber ball, not the kind with fuzz.   Take it away when your not supervising, he might tear it apart and try to eat the plastic.

https://tuffietoys.com/collections/all-toys-for-bottom-scroll/products/mega-ring

 

[Hillscreek]

I was reading about Bailey's biting which is very common among young cairns as no doubt you remember. I think this is a teething but also sometimes a dominance thing. Cairns do like to be the boss.I'm wondering if you look at this in a broader way. Go to or go back to basic training. sit, stand, wait, stay.... When he does or even start to do what you ask praise and reward. This way the biting is not isolated and this way you are re affirming you are the one in charge.

For biting I used the shunning method. Very exhausting at first as it seemed I was getting up and moving him every minute! But it did work.

Suggest crating when driving. I traveled quite a bit with Angus. Crating worked for us. He was safe and couldn't bother anyone. He just curled up and went to sleep.

 Pretty sure you will all get through this stage - even though it seems like you never will. Most of us have been there!

Best of luck.

[sanford]

The Tuffie Toy that Dog Person described reminded me of Ruffy's favorite toy: the interactive Omega Tricky Treat Ball, available online. The thick, heavy rubber seems to be indestructible and it's lasted for many years. As you can see in the pic, it has indentations so it can be carried, and one hole to insert a few treats that spill out randomly as he rolls the ball around. (You can also see where he chewed on it one time, but never again). It's his favorite toy and keeps him busy and occupied when I don't have the time. It's the only toy he takes to bed and tries to bury under the pillow.😊 (The small size rolls under the bed, so I ordered the large size).

[Smarts1969]

We're not counting our chickens yet, but we might have had something of a breakthrough with Bailey's biting.  A quick slap of a rolled up newspaper on the floor, followed by the command of 'No Bite' seems to have wised him up somewhat and for the past few days he hasn't been doing quite so much biting as he was doing, and even then it is nothing like the intensity that it was.  When he does bite, a quick 'No Bite' command tends to see him back off.  We might be on the right road at last.

[Hillscreek]

Sounds like the way to go with Bailey. Be consistent and he'll get the message.  Praise when he does the right thing.

[Toto-lee Cairn]

My 'Toto' has bitten me twice now, and he and I are headed to the 'Canine Shrink.'  Actually, she is a Pet Behaviorist, and I am anxious to have her assess where the 'dis-connect' is, between the dog and me.

The 'puppy biting' improved significantly, given time and patience -- offering suitable chew toys, not offering things that could be confused with things I didn't want him ever chewing (say, an old shoe -- I really think it should be no shoes, and the like, but all dogs are different), rewarding for not biting, and saying things like, "Yes!  Good dog!," when he chews on something appropriate.  He chews on a set of tough keys on a ring (dog toy) and it lets me brush and groom him.  He likes the brushing, and the belly rubs, so I have seen it as a win/win.

That said . . . He picked up a dime, that fell out of my husband's pocket, while I folded laundry.  First mistake, was chasing him out of the laundry room to get it, and while I was saying 'thank you' repeatedly, and reaching for his lower jaw, he dropped the dime, I reached for it with other hand, and he bit me.  Not a puppy bite, but a good I-wanted-that-Mom-dammit-bite.  He got a loud, firm "NO bite from me," and went to Time-Out for a few minutes.

Second time he bit me was worse.

Again, the confounded laundry.  This, was a dryer sheet that I thought I had, but must've dropped.  I see Toto with it, say 'thank you,' reach for it, and got a good bite -- this time, four teeth punctures.  It bled.  It hurt.  I was a bit stunned because he readily releases most things -- brings me the ball while we play his favorite -- 'fetch.'  I say, 'thank you,' and he lets me take the ball, or he drops it.  He lets me take his toys, and I say, 'thank you,' followed by          'G-O-O-D dog, G-O-O-D boy' and maybe a pat on the head, scratch of the ears.  To reward him, then I give the toy back.  He will let me put my hand in his food bowl, take his food bowl away, take some of the kibble while he eats, feed him from my hand -- none of that bothers him.  I do not let him grab treats -- he must sit.

I really don't understand the biting me twice over the two items, except those two things were obviously of great value to him, but not things I could let him have. We see the Pet Behaviorist next Wednesday, now that his shots are complete.  My 'Toto' is now 19 weeks old, not yet neutered, and I feel I really must get a handle on this issue.

In all other ways, he is doing great.  Walks nicely on-leash, gets a one-mile walk in the evenings, after dinner -- follows commands to stop, sit, wait at an intersection.  Am working on getting him to stay until I say, 'okay,' and step forward, myself.  He readily goes into his crate -- he put himself to bed twice this week (just wanted to go on to bed) at his usual time.  He will whine for about a minute at nap time, but I figure that's because he is like a child who doesn't want to nap.  He settles down, and err . . . actually naps. Just like a child.

Anyway, I was wondering what any of you might make of the biting.

 

[sanford]

When it comes to puzzling behavior, I can only commiserate with you, but unfortunately I have no direct experience with "biting" issues. From things I've read, it sounds like Toto's issue is "impulse control", something that I would hope your Pet Behaviorist can address. Dog bites are really painful and can easily become infected if not carefully tended to.

I'll look forward to knowing what the behaviorist says.Good luck!

Edited October 6, 2018 by sanford

[Sam I Am]

Our previous Cairn Jock could get pretty nasty with his teeth also...however the turn around came when the alpha dude in our house  decided at 6 months of age ..enough was enough. Jock had a meaty bone out in the yard which I wanted to get away from him as it was starting to get to small...my husband just strode up to him bent over and picked the bone out of his mouth. I was stunned I had tried and was treated with a snarling set of grown up teeth...and of course I backed off...exactly what he wanted. For some reason I think my husbands voice, stance and no nonsense take no prisoners demeaner made Jock think twice about carrying out his threat. After that I did manage to also retrieve a bone..although I did get the major stink eye. One thing we never managed with Jock was to brush his teeth...it was like wrestling with a Tasmanian devil..lol.

I know how frustrating and dangerous and very painful being bitten is but I do suggest as others have on this site to invest in a pair of very heavy duty leather gloves ...that way you won’t get hurt and he will learn that the game is up. They can be tough little monkeys😡

You have to be the one in charge and they have to know it.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Terrier lover

[Toto-lee Cairn]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:32 PM, Terrier lover said:

For some reason I think my husbands voice, stance and no nonsense take no prisoners demeaner made Jock think twice about carrying out his threat. 

I told my husband about this just tonight, for a laugh, as I got a real kick out of your description of your husband, and the outcome of the story  . . .  not two minutes before Toto got ahold of the rubber-band-thing-y in my hair (while I was playing with him on the floor).  Of course I'm in a panic, watching him chew it, and my husband, being the alpha around here, is trying to get it out of Toto's mouth, when Toto *swallows* it.

Showed him, Toto did.

Disgruntled, my husband says, "I hope when it comes out, it pops him in the butt."

 

[Sam I Am]

But he didn’t bite him....right?🤣😳

[Toto-lee Cairn]

So, yesterday at the Dog Shrink (a certified pet behavior specialist), the behaviorist observed me, my Toto, and my husband, and interestingly-enough, pointed out a few things I had been doing that were 'rewarding' the negative behavior(s) noted here earlier.  Specifically troublesome was the 'resource guarding,' as she called it.  And she told me to roll-up a newspaper and hit myself for the potty-ing mistakes.

So, back to Square One with the potty issue.  Toto spends time in his crate, or in his confined area of the Laundry Room, and goes out to potty, again, every hour-on-the hour.  No reward for not going potty, BIG $5 REWARD every time he gets it right (a tiny piece of cheese, hotdog -- the really good stuff, as she put it).  No admonishment for an 'accident' but it is acceptable to try to catch-them-in-the-act and *startle* but not scold or frighten, and rush them outside.  My problem is that Toto is so f-a-s-t to squat and pee until by the time I can distract him, he has already gone.  *sigh*  

I had begun to let him be with me, in the kitchen, or in my bedroom, or on the screened-in back porch, ONLY, after he had gone potty, but I was still missing his cues -- and he is SO f-a-s-t, mind you! -- and he was squatting to pee.  This, with me even looking at the clock, and shooting for every two hours, tops.  My b-a-d, according to her.  Newspaper rolled, and ready to whack myself.

I have the opportunity to work with him as I am retired, as is my husband, so you'd think we have this under control.  HAR!

As for the biting, which I know we have discussed, and has been my biggest concern:  I am de-coding him.  Again, with behavior modification (mine) and those miraculous $5 REWARDS.  She assigned me/us 'homework,' and I have been doing the 'exercises' several times during the day.  Toto is responding better to me, and I admit I feel less frustrated.

But, it IS w-o-r-k.  I don't know how people who work manage it.

It is said, 'one cannot teach an old dog new tricks,' but I am living proof you can teach an old-er person new ones.

My husband was a bit disappointed the Dog Shrink never got Toto on the couch to psycho-analyze him -- "So, tell me about your childhood . . ."  I wouldn't have wanted to hear it.  Painful enough, when my daughter wants to point out everything we did wrong by her.

[sanford]

Toto-lee-Cairn - If housetraining was easy, there might only be 3 folks on this entire site! (Ditto for the topics of dog food choices, vaccinations, inhibiting biting,  etc., etc...).

Good luck... Hang in there and be more determined than Toto!

[Dianne]

Yes, hang in there.

We are only a couple of month ahead of you with Katie who is now 16mos. Both of us retired and experienced with training our previous Westies. The first year we often would look at each other and say "what were we thinking!!!"

She seemed to settle down more at about 8 - 10 months.

We were fortunate to have a gentle dog trainer and puppy classes. I was very surprised as to the new techniques for training. It soon became apparent that we were the ones needing re-education and training! It has been a challenge. She is bright but stubborn and it takes extra time and patience to convince her to do anything our way. She has to think it is her idea.

We have been in regular obedience training weekly since January.  Now repeating the intermediate class and I predict that we will be repeating this class again! We have learned to relax with it. We are not competitive and accept she will learn in her own time: two steps forward, one step back... Its a a Katie Cairn thing...

If you need a laugh about life/adventures with a Cairn, I suggest the book: Born to Bark by Stanley Coren. 

Cheers!

[Hillscreek]

On 10/16/2018 at 2:02 AM, Dianne said:

She is bright but stubborn and it takes extra time and patience to convince her to do anything our way. She has to think it is her idea.

I've trained quite a few different dogs in my life and Cairn Angus was by far the hardest - in every way. So smart so independent.  Dianne's comment has been my experience and I know from the folks on this forum also that of many many cairn pup owners. Just read a few of the cries for help in the Behavior section and you'll know you are not alone.

You'll make it through like we all did and the reward will be "the best little pal in the world"!

 

[Toto-lee Cairn]

Thank you ALL so much for the comments, the support, the encouragement, and the laughs.

I would NOT, for all-the-world have another dog, another breed . . . I only learned about 8 years back, that a Cairn was even a breed of dog.  I had thought 'Toto' in The Wizard of Oz was just a cute, scrappy little guy that shared an enviable bond with Dorothy.  My first experience with a terrier had been a JRT we adopted from the Humane Society when our daughter begged for a dog.  She had done the research, and narrowed her choices down to the Westie, the JRT, and a Bichon.  We never could find a puppy of any of the three breeds born at the right time, to consider getting a puppy, and Cosmos, the JRT, was the right dog, for all of the right reasons, at the right time and place. He was less than two, and had been badly mishandled.  It was about the time the movie My Dog Skip was released, and the JRT was the 'it' dog for a good while -- Cosmos had been a little boy's Christmas puppy (their family 'dog of choice' had been a Lab).  It was an incredibly l-o-n-g haul, but we enjoyed his delightful antics and loyalty for almost 20 years.

Fast forward.

Daughter grows up, Cosmos grows old, and is with us while she attends college.  I decided the next dog was for Momma.  It, too, was a rescue -- a Cairn.  Imagine my surprise, and utter delight, to discover Toto had been a Cairn.  He even came to me, already named 'Toto.'

This little guy has a BIG harness to grow into, and I know much of what I am dealing with is growing pains, but from those growing pains will come Unbelievable gains -- as you all so aptly put it, 'the best little pal in the world.'

[Toto-lee Cairn]

I am seeing good results from what the Dog Trainer/Pet Behaviorist/Dog Shrink has me/us doing.  He is more attentive, better-minded, and the potty training is actually going well.  No accidents in the house -- it was always peeing, never pooping -- in over four days now.

He is SO incredibly treat-motivated until the biting has taken care of itself.  Twice. he has been attracted to shoes, laundry on the floor in our closet -- our b-a-d -- his brother, Rupert's toy or treat, and each time, I say, 'Toto.'  He looks at me, anticipates a treat, sits, and is rewarded.  The trainer also has me saying "Yes!," when he does what I want.  I feel like an idiot, but it's working.

I hope my sharing helps someone else struggling a bit, or who is frustrated.  I liked the comment made about having to be re-trained, in reference to Katie Cairn (cute name, by the way).  That, and repeating the obedience classes.  Years ago, my daughter and I took Cosmos to obedience classes -- the instructor, who had a number of JRTs at her barn -- gave Cosmos an A+ and she gave my daughter and me, D's.

It still all worked out. In spite of us.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Toto-lee Cairn
grammatical error