agressive when hunting

[Corn Niblet]

I could use some advice with 1 year old Gus. He has become quite obsessed  with finding the sent of a rabbit, squirrel, mouse, and once he finds it he will continue to circle and run around that area, sometimes digging a hole to try to reach whatever it is. The problem is when I go out to call him inside, (And he would probably stay out there forever if I didn't) he will not come, and if I get close to him to pick him up he will growl and try to bite me. All he wants to do is find what he can smell. Today I have a bruise on my arm where he bit me.  I don't have any experience with this as his brother Rocky has no interest in small animals. He seems fine in all other respects.  He has been through obedience classes and will sit, stay, leave it, and usually comes when called except  when this hunting instinct takes over.  He gets one walk per day and plays with his toys and his brother Rocky.

[Idaho Cairns]

I don't consider obsessive hunting a problem with a Cairn--that is what they were bred to do and we should expect that behavior.  So is a refusal to obey a command--Cairns are single minded and stubborn and less than impressed with a human's attempt to make them mind--that goes with the Cairn territory.
However, biting for ANY reason is a critical fault in a Cairn and you really do need to work on stopping that as quickly and completely as you can.  Given their other behaviors--the independence and stubborn nature, allowing a dog to bite a human will do nothing more than make living with the Cairn pure hell.

[Hillscreek]

Agree with Idaho. The prey drive is inborn and immensely strong in many cairn terriers. In Angus it is like a switch that turns on and off in the blink of an eye. When it is on he is unresponsive to anything but the hunt. I think he might bite if he felt he was being interrupted in this important business. I cannot call him off. He persists as long as he thinks he can reach his prey but if not he quickly gives up. Then prey instinct switches off immediately and he is is usual friendly self again. He hears my call and comes running to join me. At home he is always on a long leash as we do not have fences where I live and there are predators who might be a danger to him.

Biting is not allowed in our home - even in play or even just mouthing. Perhaps you could try using a long leash and supervising him when he is out in the yard. Have a special treat waiting for him when he comes to you.

When Angus was a youngster I had place in the yard where he could dig and tear at roots and didn't bother anything. He grew out of this need eventually.

I wonder if there are earth dog clubs near you. Gus sound like a natural for barn hunts etc

[sanford]

I'm sorry to say that I can't offer any insights re biting, except that I agree with others that it is important to somehow short circuit this behavior. If a trainer could help and/or offer insights, it could only come from one familiar with cairns - or terriers in general.

Ruffy exhibits the same hunting behavior... I call it a "frenzy", transforming this gentle, compliant being into a monster that can't be distracted no matter what. Thankfully, Ruffy has never bitten, but when I pick him up to remove him or get him under control, he fights me, thrashing around barking, growling, snarling and displaying his impressive large teeth. Because I'm bigger and stronger, I'm able to maneuver him down onto his side and hold him there until he calms down and the storm clouds clear, but only until the next squirrel appears and it starts again.

i wonder if it would help to put a lead on him when he's outside... One that would drag along the ground behind him, so you could grab it to take him inside. This could only be tried as long as there is nothing out there for the lead to snag on. And he should wear a harness for this, not a collar, which could injure his neck.

[Pepper Bug's Mom]

During earthdog tests one of the entrants has fox terriers and needs to wear leather gloves to get her puppy out of the den - full force prey drive!!! Lucky for me Pepper is easy to pick up and out of the tunnel when barking at the rat.  She squirms and makes noises but has NEVER tried to bite!  Good girl!  Pepper does go cuckoo when a squirrel arrives in the yard and is IMPOSSIBLE to catch - running, barking, switching back and forth, etc.

[Corn Niblet]

Thanks everyone! Pepper bugs Mom, I liked the leather gloves idea, maybe some leather gauntlets up to the elbows!😆  You all are correct about the prey drive switching on and off.  I bought something at Petsmart and tried it this morning. It's called "Off Limits" it comes in a spray and a powder, I got both. Gus was frantically running circles around our backyard retaining wall as he could smell chipmonk.  As instructed on the bottle I sprayed it around the perimeter of the wall and he quickly gave up and came in the house. It has natural ingredients of clove and garlic.  I think this will help.  When not in hunting mode he is very sweet and gentle. I am afraid if he did barn hunt he would not be willing to give up the rat in the tube. Mine!

[Idaho Cairns]

Buy yourself some what I call "railroad gloves"--they are very heavy duty rough leather gloves with a stiff cuff that extends midway back to your elbow--easy to put on and more than thick enough to prevent a bite from hurting.  They are usually very inexpensive--try Harbor Freight or another tool supply outlet.

[pkcrossley]

yes i had to use woodstove gloves (they cover the lower arm) when one of my cairns was young, it was the only way to be sure i would not flinch and could enforce a time-out whenever necessary. cairns do not want to disturbed when they are in a hunt-and-kill frenzy, and learning enough self-control to not respond to an interruption with a snarl and a bite is a challenge for a young cairn --but one that can certainly be achieved. Gus needs to learn that when you approach him he has to snap out of it and get back into the world. it will go against all his breeding --but that is what training is for. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by pkcrossley

[Corn Niblet]

Thanks PK,  The hunt and kill frenzy is exactly the way I would describe it. Thanks for your advice. I am glad others know what I am talking about.

[Guest dog person]

Yes, I believe that a lot of cairns can be food aggressive and it is connected to their prey drive.  

My 5 year old cairn has snapped at my other small 9 pound dog occasionally, usually when food is involved.  I took the usual precautions and for the most part things were under control.  I gate them when I go out and keep a close eye on them otherwise.

Anyway, don't underestimate a cairn's ability to do harm.    My cairn was lurking around the kitchen trash can (after he had his supper)

The little dog approached and with one bite the cairn severely damaged the small dog's eye, to make a long story short, the eye had to be surgically removed and there is even more follow up stuff to come.

I love my cairn, and only blame myself.   I realize all cairns are different, however I will never let this dog near a child or let him interact with other dogs that we don't know.    I watch him like a hawk especially around meal times, and will use the gate even if only stepping out for a few minutes.     The other dog is recovering nicely, for the time being.

Edited March 31, 2018 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

I just ordered this muzzle  "Baskerville Ultra Muzzle Size 2"

I will only use it for brief periods of time when I am there to observe. It looks comfortable compared to other styles.

[Idaho Cairns]

Having had some feeding time problems in the past with our Cairns we have successfully used a hand feeding method to cure the food guarding behavior by taking complete control of the feeding away from the dog.  It is a PIA for owners but it worked for us when one of our rescue bitches started to exert her dominance at feeding time.
We sat both dogs down in front of us and gave each of the dogs a kibble at a time--the dogs focused on us, our words, our actions to the exclusion of the other dog.  We put ourselves in control instead of letting the dog create the atmosphere.  The process completely stripped feeding from a "competition" into a totally human controlled event.  After a few weeks, we let the dogs feed independently and never had a problem--we did, however,  separate the food bowls some distance.  
We never had a problem after establishing that human authority when it came to food.
I would also suggest you need to keep the dog out of the kitchen when you are cooking or dining but would advise that you do it verbally and without physical barriers--again, use human control/demands to control the situation.  The more solidly you establish your dominance over everything the Cairn does the better living with the Cairn becomes.  Yes, that will work for a five year old Cairn as well.

[Guest dog person]

Thanks, he just snaps, it's not predictable.

He was almost a year old when I got him, he is a very sweet dog otherwise.   Housebroken, affectionate.   

I can count on one hand the times he has attacked another dog,  tends to happen around the suppertime meal.   I feed them separately (opposite sides of the room) and monitor meals.   He had just finished his supper, empty dishes picked up, when this happened.

The other time it happened was when he was waiting for his supper, chicken was cooking in the oven and the other dog approached him.

I will definitely be more careful.     I have come to believe dogs should not be allowed around the dinner table/kitchen when people are eating or food is being prepared.

Just gate them in another room, not worth the risk.

Edited April 1, 2018 by dog person

[Idaho Cairns]

"Thanks, he just snaps, it's not predictable."

Then this is exactly why you need to try the hand feeding training.  We make sure the dog does not lunge or hard bite when taking food from our hands.  Constant verbal commands for "soft mouth", "no bite" as we hand the dog their food as well as positive verbal reinforcement when the dog does the right thing.  It is behavior modification of the simplest form but at a time when the canine instinct is the hardest to control--during feeding.  The entire idea is to exert and impress on the dog the idea that the human is in complete control of this most basic canine need--to eat and thus in control of other less basic situations.
We used hard, firm commands to control and, if necessary, still use the side roll to reinforce our commands.  Our little Bonnie is a "growler" at times when she seeks to control her space and we will instantly put her on her side and hold her until she relaxes if she gets too aggressive.  The point is that she NEVER wins by using that behavior--we make sure that she doesn't by making her give in/up that space immediately.  We rarely have to exert the action anymore but, from time to time, being a Cairn, she will revert and we have that "Come to Jesus" moment with her.  Cairns are headstrong as the dickens but we humans are smarter, quicker, firmer, and more stubborn than the Cairn. 
  In essence, what is your alternative with your little guy?  You can't live with a powder keg--you have to find ways to defuse the situation.  

[Guest dog person]

He never bites humans, just small animals, birds, moles.   He barks and tries to chase cars and such, but has responded to  gentle discipline and desensitization techniques.  He is allowed to bark his head off and chase squirrels that enter the back yard (fenced in).

He doesn't growl or guard his food dish.  

Also, he gets annual exams, labs and all, so there is nothing medically wrong with him.

I appreciate your suggestions.   My point was to show how much damage a cairn can do with just one bite.

Don't worry, he is being monitored very closely.

Edited April 1, 2018 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

I will seriously consider trying your suggestions.  

I will give updates.   Thanks again.

[Guest dog person]

Thought I would mention this in case it helps someone else.    Unusual scents appear to be a trigger for him, caught him sniffing around and noted guarding behavior around where vanilla scented candles were being stored (strong fragrance even when not lit).

Connecting the dots now, as this is where the unfortunate event took place.   This was something new in the house.  Needless to say, they have been removed.

[Corn Niblet]

Dog Person , I think you may be right about the connection between food aggression and prey drive.  Several Months ago, Gus attacked Rocky over a mere crumb of something that was on the kitchen floor. Rocky went immediately to the vet with a tooth hole through his lip and he had to have a stitch in his eyelid. It was very scary for me and Rocky. Both dogs eat their meals in their crates.

[Guest dog person]

When he strikes small animals he goes for the head, eye, neck, mouth area.

The thing is, he doesn't always give a warning.   It doesn't happen very often, but of course I am very concerned and hoping the precautionary measures I am taking will work.

Another trigger is when he is revved up,  repairman in the house for example, he goes into protective mode and may snap at the other dog.

Doorbell ringing is another trigger.

Edited April 2, 2018 by dog person

[Guest dog person]

I forgot to mention, sometimes a favorite toy can trigger an aggressive reaction.   His favorite ball, we play fetch in the backyard, when he comes in the ball is taken away,  very carefully as he does not want to give it up.   I often have to distract him and offer him a piece of carrot so that he will drop it, it is then stored high up where he doesn't try to get at it. 

If I don't take it away, he will head to the couch with it and guard it (quietly) if the smaller dog approaches he will snap.

There are other toys,  big tuffy rings that he occasionally plays with that he is not possessive of.   Again, another area to observe.

[bradl]

We frequently make use of trading for stuff our guys might treasure a bit too much. For really troublesome items, we retire them.  Can't retire food  so rather than battle the dogs we feed everyone separately, and hand-feed any troublemakers. 

If a book is of interest, Jean Donaldson's Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs offers her views and a lot of actionable exercise on this subject specifically. 

On the OP's situation, calling a dog off prey is very challenging indeed. I would train it in controlled circumstances where the reward for calling off from inaccessible prey is closer access to different but equally compelling prey which in US earthdog would be  safely and (very) securely caged rats. 

[Guest dog person]

I am ordering the book.   He is being an angel, for now.

I am still a little in shock over what happened and intend to do everything I can to prevent a recurrence.

Thanks