HELP! Need heartfelt advice

[Kathryn]

I definitely need your advice, your support, and maybe a few shoulders to cry on.  A few weeks ago I wrote asking about training tools for kids to help them work with dogs.  If you will remember, my "bonus granddaughter" - daughter of the daughter of a best friend who died two years ago, to whom I have been and still am very close - got nipped by Oban about a year ago (no skin broken, but definitely a snap) when she leaned over him to hug him while he was in my lap. It was quick, and I didn't have time to react as she had been crawling around under the dining room table while we were all talking after dinner. My son-in-law is, as I mentioned, not a dog person, not an outdoorsy person.  And bonus daughter is also wound tight.

We watch the dog and child together closely now, but she is somewhat afraid of dogs, given her parents' proclivities.  She will still scream and run when Oban comes towards her, and he reacts as most terriers would. We scoop him up, he has never bit again, but he is an enthusiastic terrier who will run and jump when someone is doing the same. We separate them but -- as she becomes older - a closed door or gate doesn't keep her out...and I am not willing to completely separate the dog out of their life.

I read and watched everything you all told me about, and Steve and I decided what would  help her would be for her to join me as I "train" the dog so that she would learn to act appropriately around him and would avoid those actions which set dogs off, of which she does many...One afternoon I worked with her and, when her folks came over for dinner, mentioned I had begun that.  Mom went into an adamant "it's your dog that needs training, not my child." She was quite rigid. I spent a few nights crying, Steve and I talked it over and over and over, and we decided that, if we were ever to have the child in our house, we were going to have to sit down with them and express our concerns with hopes of clearing the air.   This was not an isolated comment on her part, and the husband has made similar ones.  I don't even known if he realizes how hurtful they are...

Anyway, we will sit down -- without kid -- later this week. When I called to suggest it, since they both work, I mentioned we could meet for morning coffee as they head to work so that the child would not be around. She insisted that would not work because she will cannot go to work after this conversation (I decribed it quite lightly, so the anger is on her side) so we will need to meet later.

God - if they issue some kind of ultimatum, and I think they will try, what do we do? I am not going to give the dog up, and I truly believe the child needs to learn how to behave around dogs.  The family is fooling themselves if they think the child is safe not knowing how to act...

Steve says he would react to an ultimatum the way he usually does: you made your bed, now lay in it.  But I am afraid this means we no longer see the child in our house -- or in the house we rent on winter vacations, which they have visited.  

What should I do? Help!

Edited April 18, 2016 by Kathryn

[Lupinegirl]

I remember when you first brought this up. I'm sorry things have not gotten any better. Hugs.

have you tried walking Granddaughter and Oban outside with Oban on a leash?  She doesn't have to go near him but she'll see that he can't hurt her if she stays out of his reach.  Maybe that will help her overcome her nervousness?  Could you ask Oban to do a Sit Stay and brush him while he is on his leash so that he can calm down and relax a bit? I don't know. I've never had to deal with people like your Granddaughter's parents.  

Maybe instead of saying "training" Oban would be beneficial to the kid, you could flip it around by saying it would be helpful for you and Oban to have a kid he knows around him to help desensitize him? Then again they might not approve of her being the Guinea pig, especially if she's still nervous. Forcing her to be around Oban won't help her, either, if she is anything like my cousin who gets flustered if anyone tells her to do anything. I don't have any other ideas. Best wishes, and I hope that even if you can't help this little girl with dogs, someone else can in the future.  

[Sam I Am]

I am afraid that the dogs in our lives  are part of our family and if someone finds that offensive or objects to part of my family living in my house ...well they better learn to deal with it one way or another. It's not your problem it's theirs. If they, the parents  keep on installing fear into their child around animals then they will have deal with that also. 

I am sorry I get really angry when I hear stories like yours...really, what do they expect you to do? Get rid of your beloved Oban. How selfish of them and how foolish. If for some reason I was "forced" to get rid of one of my animals (that will never ever happen), but just playing out a scenario, I would resent and yes, even hate, that person. Now that sure makes for a loving relationship doesn't it! 

I know I am sounding very harsh but dogs and cats are a life time commitment and if someone doesn't get that, They can hit the road and don't let the door hit your butt as you leave!Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Hillscreek]

 Like all cairns there's no doubt Oban is sensitive to the situation. You do not want to risk another nip. He can move much quicker than a human. He may come to feel on edge whenever your granddaughter and /or family are around.

The child is the responsibility of their family not you. Painful it is and tears may be shed but perhaps it may be best for the little girl and Oban not to see each other for a while. As she gets older maybe you can try again.  Sad though it is we cannot force everyone to get along, or everyone to be doggy folk. Perhaps you have done what you can for now - take comfort in that. Let time go by.

You say

Quote

I am not willing to completely separate the dog out of their life

Then all I can think of is to crate him with his crate in an xpen when they are with you. You absolutely don't want risk turning Oban to change from a bouncy friendly fellow into a snappy, bitey little guy who may become untrustworthy among children. If your little granddaughter's family are not doggy people then what other choice have you?

Please forgive if I seem harsh I've learned the hard way about situations like this.........

 

[hheldorfer]

I can feel your pain and frustration and know this isn't a simple decision for you.  My first reaction is that it is totally unfair (not to mention unbelievably rude) of these people to expect you to give up part of *your* family in order to spend time with one of *their* family.  Ultimatums are rarely a good way to deal with issues in relationships and these people need to work on their social skills.

You had recognized the problem and were beginning to deal with it; the mother responded with her snarky comment about your dog needing training, not her child.  It seems to me that if these people truly valued your friendship and appreciated your love for their daughter, they would not be behaving this way.  Apparently they don't feel the same way as you regarding the relationship.

One thing I have learned is that you can't hang onto someone when they want to go and you can't get rid of someone who wants to stay.  Seems to me that they want to go, you want to stay, and something has to give.  Despite your attachment to their daughter I don't think you can allow yourself to be held hostage to the parents hurtfulness and unreasonable demands.   Someday they will realize their mistake - probably when someone much less considerate than you tells them to shove their attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

 

 

 

 

[Dempsy's Mom]

It is evident that you love this little girl and she and her family are important to you.  How often does this little gal visit?  Are they all day visits or overnight visits?  Can little Oban go to a doggy day care for a couple hours or to a friends house just to help relieve the situation for a little while till things settle. 

Unfortunately, they may not settle down.  They seem hardened.  Some people are just anti-animal and most anti-animal people are a little selfish and self-centered.  If they have popped their walls up, they may not come down.  You have a lot to offer to this little girl - she can learn so much from you and Steve - I would hate to see her lose the opportunities that being in your life can provide.  So as I ponder - deep sigh - you may need to visit them instead of them visiting you.  And yes, as this little gal grows, as she goes to school, gets to know other kids, maybe the other kids will have (God Forbid!) a dog, and she learns to appreciate and respect things .... animals .... it may all fall into place.  It doesn't sound like they are willing people so you may need to do a little shuffling and pray it gets better.  If it doesn't - well you have done your best.

Little Oban has a home and he has your love and the little girl has a home and she has your love too.  Isn't life fun?! Ugh - it continues to be a challenge for me too Kathryn.  Sometimes I think you and me are the only sane people .... and sometimes I wonder about you.  Always got a chuckle out of that statement.  Good luck!  Your situation will be on my mind now, right along with all my other situations every night before I go to bed I will send up a prayer - what's one more on my list. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Dempsy's Mom

[Toby23]

4 grandkids here.  The grands are not allowed to hug my Cairns. My dogs must be treated with respect and vice versa. If the dogs are too excited and jumping, outside they go until their enthusiasm has left.  I'm guessing there are more then dog issues going on for you and the pup is merely a scapegoat. To continue your relationship I'd go with kenneling your pup. Or, instead of the girl visiting do day excursions leaving pup at home. A bit of background from me, my daughter and SIL do Pug rescue. Most days their dog population varies between 6 to 9 dogs. I still hold fast to my house rules.  How a dog "nip" was handled by my family. On the way to a campground my 10 yr old granddaughter and I stopped for Lunch. My fried had her large dog along. We were eating on a grassy spot outside the restaurant when my granddaughter leaned back and brushed against my friends dog. Eddie (the dog) nipped at Julia, made minor contact with Julia's eyebrow, minor skin scrape and bruising. I called my daughter to inform her of the incident. My daughter talked to Julia and explained that Eddie is old and sometimes older dogs have pains.  We kept Eddie and Julia separate for the remainder of the weekend. I guess what I'm trying to show is how reasonable folks deal with similar situations. Best of luck ! 

[Autumn & Lola]

This girl's parents sound totally unreasonable and don't sound like they are going to budge from their stance on dogs.  I do think it is important that you try again to work through their stubbornness. During your talk, you may want to ask them how they plan on sheltering their daughter from dogs throughout her childhood. Certainly Oban is not the only dog with which she will have contact. I think they are doing their daughter a huge disservice by not teaching her, or allowing you to teach her how to interact with dogs. How sad for her. Since this couple doesn't seem to mince words, you may want to mention that to them as well, and it wouldn't be rude, given what they've already said to you.

The only thing I can suggest is to always speak of Oban and other animals in positive terms around the little girl - even if Oban is being a stinker - because she needs that balance. God only knows what they are telling her, fueled by their own distrust and dislike of animals.

I speak from experience. I used to be pretty scared of all dogs. My parents had a dog when I was a small child. The dog knocked me over when I was two years old. Even though two year olds are rarely steady on their feet, my mom blamed the dog and they sent her away, as my mom was sure the dog would attack me!  Later they inherited a dog when my grandfather died. This dog was small, old, slow-moving and half-blind. I was still a bit wary, as my mom had instilled that fear into me. That dog wouldn't have bit me if I had swung her by her tail! Dogs were thought of as something you fed, watered and walked - a responsibility- rather than a loving, fun part of the family. When my parents had my sister when I was 16, they gave that sweet, little 15 year old dog to family friends, because my Mom was sure the dog would 'eat the baby'! Mom told me about a paperboy that got his 'face bit up' by a dog, and other similar scare tactics. I had a paper route and would shake if I heard what sounded like a big dog barking behind the door. I turned down babysitting jobs if a family had a dog.

It wasn't until I was much older that I got comfortable with dogs. My ex was a real jerk on many levels, but he did help me considerably in learning about dogs, body language and their reactions and how to talk to and interact with them. I will always be thankful to him for helping me get over my fear. But I had spent the first 20+ years of my life pretty wary and even afraid of dogs, which is really sad!  I still have a *tiny* fear of very large dogs, which is why I force myself to greet them when out and about, and ask if I can pet them, etc.

Sorry to go on so much but I truly hope you can get through to these people.  I can't imagine what my life would be like now had I not gotten over my fear. Not to have had Mandy, Molly and Lola in my life makes me very sad to think about!  If she visits in your home again, talk extra-sweet to Oban, and give him kisses and hugs (if he permits!).  Perhaps your calm, loving actions will speak louder than her parents' words.

 

[Kathryn]

Thanks to all for comments so far. No word from them on when to meet, and it is eating at me. Sigh.

Oban wonderful and sleeping in my lap...

Edited April 19, 2016 by Kathryn

[hheldorfer]

26 minutes ago, Kathryn said:

Thanks to all for comments so far. No word from them on when to meet, and it is eating at me. Sigh.

Oban wonderful and sleeping in my lap...

Oban knows you're upset.  God love him for being a sweetheart today.

[remltr]

I would try and educate them, as difficult as it may be, that in order for the dog to be trained the human has be trained as well. If the human is not trained then the human won't know what commands to give to the dog. And whatever comes out of the humans mouth is going to sound like gibberish to the dog. It is a simple matter of communication. And that can be especially difficult with a hard headed Cairn terrier.

[Idaho Cairns]

To quote you: " God - if they issue some kind of ultimatum, and I think they will try, what do we do? I am not going to give the dog up "  There is your answer.  It looks like you have lost the company of a grandchild but it is the parents' option, not yours.  Either indicate directly that you have no intention of getting rid of the dog, that they are welcome in your home with that dog and then let the thing play out.  After all, they have to determine the value of your company.  I have been in this situation with one grandchild and his parents over another matter and I refused to accept the conditions the parents (my oldest daughter and her husband) made on my wife and I and the result is that we do not socially interact with the child except on rare holiday get togethers--never with the son-in-law (which is fine with me).  I have accepted the separation because if life has taught me anything, it is that story book relations with every child and grand child is just that--a fairy tale.  I gave up the interaction with a grandchild rather than compromise in what I felt was an insulting set of conditions for a father and grandfather to have to endure.  That might have to be your fate as well.
I have ten grandchildren and, fortunately, we have never had a problem with our Cairns and I have videos that would scare you to death with the hard play, rambunctious children and dogs, the tugging, smushing, that goes on without a hint of a bite.  We have had one lunge when Sammi was asleep and a child fell on her--nothing more, she caught herself and no damage occurred.  It has not been my experience that our Cairns are in the least a problem with children of any age.  
All that said, if you want my advice it would be to run your home, your dog the way you think best and if accommodations are to be made, then it is the responsibility of the guest to accept or reject that situation.

[Kathryn]

You all are terrific, and I cannot thank you enough.  This is really really hard for me.  Our meeting is tomorrow, and I guess I already understand it does not look good -- though I do hope.

Regarding some comments here, I have walked with Oban and granddaughter (GD) as Lupinegirl suggested, often, and for several years. He is on the leash, and I hold the leash, and sometimes she holds the leash.  The fact of this is that the vast majority of this time, Oban is a very well-behaved little cairn terrier, and he walks well with me, with her, with anyone else holding the leash. He sits, he stays, he has a reliable downstay.  For a cairn, he is quite well behaved.  FOR A CAIRN...I would never let him off leash.

But sometimes he reacts to the situation around him. Example: when they came to visit us while we were in Pacific Grove, California, in February -- we stayed in a very small one-bedroom rented house just a block from the ocean -- friend's daughter and I were returning from the laundromat. SIL and granddaughter (GD) hid in the small bedroom and, when I walked in, jumped out at me.  It is a favorite GD game, but I was not expecting it and I yelped. Oban reacted with barks and jumps onto GD - was he just reacting to the noise and excitement,  responding to my excitement, or protecting me? I don't know. Bonus daughter asked GD if "dog had bitten her..." 

Our intent in starting to work with GD was to help her gain confidence around dogs -- to have her give commands to our dog, to have him obey her (Oban is actually so completely compliant if offered the smallest treat...), to have her learn the kinds of body language and gestures which work with dogs and which set them off...but I never even got the chance to explain to bonus daughter that this is what I was trying to do.  Her comment when I called her that she could not meet prior to work because she expects to be too upset does not give me hope for tomorrow.

Oban and I had a good day, though I did not make it into my studio to make pots and did spend much of the day fretting.  We had a wonderful walk and visited for the longest time with a neighbor who is 94 and still in her home -- and mourning the dog she had to put down over the winter. 

So Lori -- I will accept your prayers and good thoughts, and those of others here.  You have helped me get through the days leading up to this, and I will let you know what happens.  I am practicing the kind of open yet firm statements and questions that draw out more information -- but I am still concerned.

I thank you all for your care. And thank you for loving cairns...

 

[kjwarnold]

Thinking of you and hope things turn out for the best...

[Lynn in TN]

Kathryn, I understand what you are going through and although I am very crude, and blunt I don't mean to be, everything I say and do I do out of love, or try to. I have been through similar situations before, not because of my dogs, but still unreasonable demands being made to me on MY property and I will be honest I'm getting down right cranky about it these days. It has been my experience that if you let people make unreasonable demands and don't stand up for what you believe, it will keep happening. They will continue to make other demands. It won't stop.

I just recently told my 19 year old son "My house my rules and I will fight till death for that right. If I worked for it, I will run it the way I see fit. When you buy a home or a business or what ever, I will fight till death so that you can run it the way you see fit, even if I think it is the wrong way. It's the way I was raised and I'll live by it until I die, whether you or anybody else likes it or not. I may tell you you're wrong that's my right too." My son and I have had a long discussion on the way some people are these days. I am tired of the "If you don't think like I do and do things the way I want you too I'm not going to play with you any more, bit.  That's how children react. I say let them, you are better off without them.

Love you and praying for you.

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Lynn in TN

[pkcrossley]

i congratulate you on being patient and understanding with these people. there are a lot of people out there who make a lot of rules about other people's dogs. it is a principle with them. these people need to be kept in their place. you seem to indicate that you are not going to respond to any ultimatums about your own dog in your own house, which seems to me the only sane response. on the other hand, while i agree with you that all children need to learn some real-world stuff about respecting dogs, what these people's child does or doesn't learn about dogs is really their business. the two issues seem to be separate and if you can keep them physically separated --which i think has been your instinct even though it has not been achieved-- that might be best as well. if you are unable or unwilling to confine oban when these people are in the house, then they will have to stay out; you can visit them at their place without oban. if they are determined that their child will not encounter dogs, then they will have to contrive some life for her in which it doesn't happen --that is their problem. my impression is that these lines are getting blurred and the pressure is being put on you to solve it --they want their child to not deal with any of the issues related to handling dogs, and they think you should provide the magic environment in which the child is never confronted with the responsibilities of encountering a dog. this isn't all on you. in your house, you make the rules, and you cannot create a world in which dogs are always cute and cuddly and never get overwrought, anxious, or nippy. 

 

i can certainly imagine that in the aftermath of such a conflict there will be hurt feelings. those can be worked through if the boundaries are identified and enforced consistently (yes, just like when dealing with cairns). people who would presume to make rules about other people's dogs in other people's houses, and succeed at it, won't stop there. if they can process that although you are not going to allow them to dictate anything about your dog in your house, that you nevertheless care about them the same as always, good. and if you can process that although you care about your grandchild it isn't your responsibility to teach her anything about dogs, good. if not, this is a problem that would have arisen about something else, some other time. i hope you can all work it out and be happy with each other. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by pkcrossley

[sanford]

Thanks pK, I think you nailed it! ?

This situation is so highly charged and yet it - or aspects of it - could apply to others on this site who have had similar run-ins with others over their dogs. Again, thanks for seeing and approaching this so clearly!

Edited April 20, 2016 by sanford

[Sam I Am]

And of course it goes way beyond just a dog issue in situations like this. When people start handing out ultimatums there is always going to be conflict. Someone  has to "back down" if common ground isn't found. I am very much like Lynn in TN, my  house, my rules and most important of all MY dog! If an alternative visitation outside of your house can be managed , without Oban being present, you might keep the peace. But already in my opinion the trust and fairness of the relationship you have with these people has been damaged. And I would be very concerned that the parents, if Oban was present, would Be hostile towards him , if in their views he was going to hurt their child. A kick, a punch can do a lot of damage to a small Cairn. I always maintain.....if my dog doesn't like you, chances I won't either. Tough sounding perhaps, but you might want to rethink if these people are worth the angst that they are creating?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Terrier lover

[Islander]

I can't add anything to the very sage and practical advice from others, but just wanted to say I have been following this thread with concern - and hope.

I am very grateful that everyone in my immediate family adores dogs, and Gus in particular. My two youngest grandchildren, ages 1 and 2, have learned to be gentle with him, and he is sweet and loving towards them. There were a few warning growls on the learning curve but nothing more. I feel even luckier now.

Thinking of you, Kathryn, and really hoping that the conversation is constructive and useful.

[Kathryn]

About what I expected - maybe worse, actually.

We met for an hour this afternoon. What became clear very quickly is that bonus daughter (BD) had come with about a year's worth of fears, assumptions and grudges which she had made no previous mention of, other than occasional snappy asides to which I finally responded by asking for this meeting.  After Oban snapped at bonus granddaughter (BG) last year, BD and I had a telephone conversation in which I said I felt the fault was really mine more than the dog's, because I should have been (1) asking BG not to crawl around under the dining room table, and (2) stopping her before she bent down and hugged the dog, covering his face with her hands as she did so. Apparently BD felt I had agreed to cage the dog out of reach/sight whenever BG and her parents came over, which I certainly did not agree to do.  Indeed, I do remember telling her, "I am not going to leave the dog out in the garage." Steve didn't hear the conversation, but he agreed I would never agree to such, nor would he. 

BD laid out a whole range of complaints about how we had not met our agreement over the past year. I didn't bother to refute this more than once: I know what I said, but I don't know what she heard. And then she said that, if we would not cage the dog, BG would not be able to visit in our home.  Steve and I agreed that it seemed she would probably not, and then the ultimatum was refused. Bonus son-in-law, an attorney, moved the conversation to scenarios in which BG might be able to be in our home, and we talked for a while about supervised visits in which BG would work with me to gain mastery of the dog, but it was clear that BD was not buying in, and BSIL's scenarios always seemed to end with the dog caged anyway.  Steve finally just said that, for lots of reasons, that was not workable and perhaps we could revisit the discussion at some point in the future. 

There was also some to-do about their visit to California, and how Oban did not obey us immediately (usually during some kind of noisy chaos, while BG was jumping around, and BSIL was trying to outshout the dog, etc.) They also seemed to think he should never bark... (and he is a very "talk-y" dog...with a whole range of vocalizations which they interpret as barking.) I did talk about trying to work with them all to understand how to "speak and act dog," but it was clear they were not interested in learning.  BD said we needed to train our dog to respond to commands (which, of course folks, we do!), that she and BG meet lots of dogs in their neighborhood, and " BG doesn't have any problem with them, even pitbulls." Then mentioned how BG always reaches her hand out to new dogs so they can sniff it (!) - and I said, too quickly, "don't let her do that!" and was shut down. Clearly our advice will not be accepted or followed...I had a sheet on greeting a dog there, and they left in on the table when they left.

I don't know how to come to agreement with someone who won't even bring up concerns. Also, I do know -- and had reinforced tonight -- how strongly BD holds grudges (have seem some extreme evidence of this before), and I suspect this meeting has given her even more to stew about.

Once or twice each week I pick up BG from her school early to take her to various lessons, which I also pay for (trapeze and circus arts for two years now, and summer camps too). We have hosted the child's adult birthday party, including BSIL's parents (he finds them difficult and appreciated this). We hosted Christmas, New Year's Eve, the Super Bowl, and a host of "family" picnics and dinners for them and their family, including BD's brother and wife. We subsidized their trip to visit us in California. For now, I will continue to take BG to her classes.  Over time, though, I will not accept being just a taxi driver. We will see how this goes. (Steve had just got some kid's golf clubs for her too, as she had expressed an interest in learning golf. We are going to put that on hold too.)

LIke Idaho and others, I have had to make hard decisions before -- and I guess I may yet have to make some again. I plan to remain true to myself, Steve, and family - which in our case is dog! - and protect our life together. Tomorrow I turn 67 - heck of a time to have to go through all this, right? - and I have asked Steve to drive me to Winona MN, about 2 hours south of us on the Mississippi, to visit my aunt and take us to lunch. She is 104 and a half, and still lives in her own home -- and she makes me feel sane and loved. A great way to spend the day after today.

Thanks to all of you.  Your comments helped, and helped me clarify how I had to approach this meeting.  And helped me stay firm in myself, though I was being dealt a heavy load of guilt.  Time will tell, of course -- though my expectations right now are not high. But I am intact, and so is my family. I am thankful for that.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Kathryn

[remltr]

Sometimes you run into brick walls and there is no way through, you just have to go around. Grab the moments you can and enjoy them as best you can. Good luck.

 

[hheldorfer]

Can't say it any better than remltr already did.  Sorry you had to go through this Kathryn.  Enjoy your visit with your aunt (amazing lady!) and be thankful for the wonderful things you have in life.

[Lynn in TN]

I am sorry to hear their expectations, and that the meeting did not go well. I am sorry for the hurt that I know you are feeling. I am glad you are going to spend some time with someone who makes you feel sane and loved, and 104 years old. WOW! That is amazing. Hug and enjoy your loved ones.

 

 

[Sam I Am]

Katheryn I am glad you are still young...otherwise this whole scenario would be screaming elder abuse! 

You are paying for this child's recreational programs, you are a taxi driver, you get treated by the sound of it with little respect, and your dog is in their eyes an aggressive biter that has no manners. He is a lawyer, which makes me wonder if Oban nipped this child, would he take legal action? Plus you are subsidizing their travel...wow, lawyers that I know don't suffer from lack of funds.

 I would question why you even want these people in your life? 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Terrier lover

[Idaho Cairns]

I have a very simple, short, soul soothing, and effective  response to these situations and to these kinds of people and it works beautifully to express the exact level of my tolerance of their need to complicate my life with their foolishness.  A heartfelt and very direct, "Kiss my ass!" is an excellent purgative for difficult people-works everytime.
Sorry if I offend any of my friends here and Bradl, feel free to edit if necessary.