temper tantrums, ugg....

[Flatpick]

so Piper has been great about 85% of the time.  she's about 90% housebroken and only booboos when we're not paying attention.  her house manners are good an she loves to play. she's cute as a bug in a rug. that's the good stuff. for the bad....she has some issues with biting our hands when play gets rough or when she's excited and sometimes when she gets wound up and doesn't get her way she throws an honest to goodness temper tantrum. since she's always on a leash she is pretty headstrong about the 'route' and pulls hard on the leash. we don't want to hurt her throat but when she's standing on her back legs pulling it's pretty hard to take.

on the tantrums we're holding her and calmly waiting till she calms down.  it's like a freaking switch goes off when she calms.  completely different dog.

 

any advice or similar situations?

 

steve

[_whits_]

Ahhhh, I remember those tantrums. Not at all fondly. 

I definitely think you're on the right track by stopping everything and waiting to let her keep walking until she's calmed down. That's probably the best Cairn punishment - not hurting her but keeping her away from the fun. 

Addie's tantrums usually involved her just throwing herself on her side and laying down mid-walk if I didn't go where she wanted. Addie always had mesh harnesses when she was little, and I took her trainer's advice and just dragged her along the grass like a little dead fish when she would throw her tantrum. Which worked, until she managed to Houdini out of the harness and take about 10 years off my life. And then as she got older she got stronger and her leash started tearing into the skin on my hands and she once tore a muscle in my shoulder pulling so hard. At which point I took her to a professional trainer for HELP.

Addie's horrendous leash behavior was partly her being stubborn but by 8-9 months was her prey drive kicking in and getting her adrenaline to PULL PULL PULL until she found those rabbits and squirrels. 

The things that worked best for me when Addie was particularly intractable were things that kept her on the edge of exhaustion and things that calmed her down.

Exhaustion: She had loads of treat puzzles to wear her brain out. I kept her in weekly dog training (we used Petsmart) through their beginner, intermediate, and advanced, and the brain challenge kept her nominally obedient for the rest of the day and sometimes into the next. The best change in her behavior came when I enrolled her in doggie daycare for a few half days a week (but most reputable daycares require a dog to be 6+ months and spayed/neutered). I couldn't believe the change that came when she started going to daycare regularly. Some of it was her being too worn out to be annoying, but I also think some of it was having other dogs and people setting limits with her. 

Calming: Before walks, and any time on walks she'd get super super excited and start pulling, I'd make her stop, sit, and I'd give her a massage on her chest; even if I had to do it while holding her tightly, eventually it seemed to get her to relax a bit. 

As for other things that helped:

Working with a trainer (positive reinforcement, combination of her puppy trainer at Petsmart and a personal dog trainer I hired for a couple of weeks) we introduced a prong collar on walks. I was very, very nervous about this injuring her neck, so I only did it for longer walks (so not every time she was a on a leash) and only used it for a few weeks until I saw some improvement. 

I used the most valuable (to her) treats I could find (I tore off pieces of Natural Balance dog food rolls http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dog-formulas/rolls) to bribe her to pay attention to me and only me on walks and make her stop and sit regularly during the walk, using the treats and a clicker. Any time on a walk that she did anything I asked, she got a click, a treat, and SO MUCH PRAISE. I'm sure we looked ridiculous. 

All of that in combination with the old reliable time and age means that at age 4 Addie is about 100x better on walks than I ever imagined she would be. Granted, she's no Golden Retriever, but she's a mighty fine terrier. 

My other trick I learned from a Discovery Channel special on Killer Whales killing Great White Sharks. Apparently the orcas flip the sharks on their backs, which makes them suffocate. I was watching that and dealing with an intractable puppy, so I picked up Addie, flipped her on her back, and cradled her like a baby. To this day if she's ever overexcited and unfocused (usually when she pops out the daycare door like a torpedo), if I pick her up and cradle her on her back like a baby, she calms down. 

I hope some of this helps! If only to let you know that this is totally normal and that it does get better. 

[Idaho Cairns]

Not unusual behavior for Cairn pup--they have to learn the limitations, the "rules", and that's your job.  Might want to read up on or watch video's on "the alpha roll".  Some don't favor it but I am a real fan of using it with puppies--has a tendency to both calm them down and get their attention--if done properly.

[kjwarnold]

Kirby would have tantrums when he got tired, just like a little kid.  When that happened, I just put him in his crate or ex-pen for a nap.  When he woke up, he was fine.  As for the biting during rough play, I started yelling, "Ouch!" really loud when he bit hard.  It startled him and he immediately stopped, often coming to check to see if I was okay.  He gradually learned to play more gently.  Interestingly, he never played too rough with small kids or elderly people.  All my Cairns instinctively knew how to play more gently with them.

 Hang in there, you'll get through the little puppy problems.  Oh, and at 7 years old, Kirby can still act like a puppy at times.  Not the biting or anything bad, but the funny, goofy things puppies do.  And he still uses his puppy bark when he's being silly, it's great!

[Hillscreek]

Good advice above. Puppies are puppies and take a while to grow up.

Obedience classes may be a way to go also as she gets older. Go watch one and see what you think. Make sure they understand terriers.

 If you have a place you can walk Piper on a long line that will give her a chance to to have some space. Also playing with a ball is good fun. Keep her on a line so you can retrieve her as well as the ball I used 20ft, then 30 ft then 50 ft line as Angus got older and taught him the recall that way. 

Other mental fun is hide and seek for a treat or for a favorite toy. I taught all the basics like they were a game -sit down stay etc and I always made Angus sit before eating and sit to have leash put on. I tried teaching  tricks -hi five, roll over drop etc but I wasn't very good at it.

I found a few minutes of play off and on through the day was better than fewer longer times. He didn't get so stressed and wound up that way.

For biting did like kwarnwold - biting not quite so bad after big boy teeth come in. As soon as the teeth came out I stopped and turned away. Cairns do not like to be ignored.

Keeping both body and mind at work does help.

Piper is doing wonderful! Don't be in a hurry she's a baby yet. It takes a long time for a cairn terrier to be persuaded to agree to do what you ask. They learn lighting fast  then decide whether they want to do what you say or not. Takes patience and perseverance

 

[hheldorfer]

So far it sounds like Piper is a normal Cairn puppy.  

A friend of ours (who had terriers) recommended trying a prong collar on walks.  I was hesitant at first but it made a HUGE difference.  Buffy stopped pulling like a bloodthirsty fiend within 1-2 weeks.   If used properly, a prong collar will not harm the dog.  Just remember to reserve it for walks only and take it off at other times.  The other option, of course, is a harness, which will give you better control.

 

[pkcrossley]

tantrums and cairn-ness go together. from my perspective, you have to 1) accept that cairn breeding has built-in a hair-trigger frenzy reflex that is horrifying to behold 2) work like mad from the time she's a pup to raise the threshold at which she goes off 3) have a strategy to deal with the tantrums when they occur (and the best cairn in the world may find a reason for a tantrum from time to time). if you have learned to hold her down and wait for the tantrums to pass, good work. if you can do the same thing when she is full-grown (and 10 tens as strong), even better. the worst case scenario is a cairn who keeps the threshold low and frenzies for fun and profit. they learn lightning fast that a good frenzy puts the fear of Cairn into humans, and if you flinch they will exploit it instantly. they are capable of some restraint and with work you can raise the threshold high enough that you won't have weekly, monthly or even annual tantrums. this is the most complex part of cairn raising, in my view. separates the wheat from the chaff. courage, absolute consistency and laughter (they hate to be laughed at when being scary) will win the day. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by pkcrossley

[Sam I Am]

Hell has no fury as a Cairn scorned. Well...not really but you want to see pissed off...well that's another matter.

[Flatpick]

WOW!!!  Thanks all!  we will take ALL of the above into consideration!  and my DW says "whew, this makes me feel better knowing we're not alone!"  This forum is REALLY special and you guys are wonderful!  Thanks again!

 

pk- we hardly feel like laughing when she's scary, it's more like crying!  

 

steve

[sanford]

On February 8, 2016 at 1:19 AM, _whits_ said:

My other trick I learned from a Discovery Channel special on Killer Whales killing Great White Sharks...

Forget about The Dog Whisperer...This gave me my best laugh of the day... "The Killer Whale"/"Great White Shark" philosophy of training your cairn!

But to return to the topic at hand (literally!), bites on your hand from sharp baby teeth are excruciating, but as you probably know, Piper's adult teeth won't be so sharp. Nevertheless, as mentioned above, biting must be discouraged and the technique described: pulling your hand away with an exaggerated display of pain and verbal disapproval with a time-out thrown in for good measure, usually works wonders!

 "...she is pretty headstrong about the 'route' and pulls hard on the leash. We don't want to hurt her throat but when she's standing on her back legs pulling its pretty hard to take..." I know this only too well. I found that when this happens, instead of pulling/dragging Ruffy on the leash, I stand in front of him and repeatedly jerk the leash toward me (not violently), just enough to get him to move. This works most of the time, but not all the time. To protect Ruffy's throat, I also resort to using a harness from time to time. Ironically, many dogs are able to use their shoulders to pull even harder in a harness, but at least their throats aren't at risk. 

WHITS: "...And then as she got older she got stronger and her leash started tearing into the skin on my hands..." I found that leashes with padded handles are easy on my hands and make walking Ruffy a lot more pleasant.

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by sanford

[Idaho Cairns]

Some additional advice Flatpick that I think essential for Cairn pup or any pup and that is the command "No!".  I believe it is the first command a Cairn puppy must learn, long before "come", sit", "down", etc.  the command "No!" once learned corrects a lot of ills and misunderstanding in the puppy.  That is particularly the case with teeth and biting--playing with toys is one of the most fun and endearing qualities of a puppy but using those toys, combating with humans over the possession of toys, creates a need in the puppy to use and exercise that little mouth in proximity of the human hand--basic lessons need to be learned and the sooner the better.  If those little teeth come in contact with human skin, no matter how gently, I advise grasping that snout, looking directly into those eyes and using the firm "No!" command immediately.   The puppy needs to learn early and completely what can and cannot be bitten and that's your job.
Once the pup understands "No!", most of the rest of the training is much easier.  Whether you use the command in conjunction with the above mentioned "alpha roll" or not, it is useful, very useful for the puppy to know the command early.  Things will go better for all of you if you stress "No!" at the outset and not to worry, I haven't noticed that using and enforcing "No!" has lessened any of the natural exuberance of the Cairn pup--they have plenty of spirit to overcome  any possible use of the  command and plenty of brains to make the connection between  the command and unwanted behavior.

[Dogband1]

Hi flatpick, just how old is Piper?  Today has been an especially trying day with our 16 week old Reilly.  We have a huge snow front coming thru today---maybe this had an effect.  He had for a week or two, been doing a nice walk with an Ipuppyone  harness, but today it was almost dragging the dead fish thing.  He stops to look at and listen to everything, but when we have a warm day on the deck he ignores all of the outdoors.  Geez.  It's been 16 years since I had a cairn puppy, and then it was two at one time.  How we got through that I do not know.  Good luck to you.

Thanks to to all who posted replies, as these help give us hope.  I will also look at the alpha roll, I suspect it may be something I call dominance down, which helped a ton with our first, single cairn.

[_whits_]

7 hours ago, sanford said:

Forget about The Dog Whisperer...This gave me my best laugh of the day... "The Killer Whale"/"Great White Shark" philosophy of training your cairn!

I was somewhat mistaken, it was actually National Geographic that did the special. It was called the Whale That Ate Jaws (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/25/nat-geo-wild-the-whale-that-ate-jaws/). Happy to have made you laugh!

Seriously though, this trick works. Addie has tough little legs and she was not afraid to flail around with nails and teeth flying and I was not at all successful with the alpha roll because I could not get my hands around all of Addie's legs to flip her safely (for both of us), and even when I did she would wiggle her way right out of my grasp on the ground. When I saw these orcas ram into the sharks to flip them on their backs and watched the great white sharks fall right asleep (and either suffocate from lack of movement or just straight away get eaten), I looked down at that little monster at my feet and was like, "hmmmmmmmm, it can't hurt to try!" The next time she threw a tantrum I lifted her off the ground, flipped her on her back, and watched her fall half asleep in my arms (or at least stop flailing like a maniac). She never gets put down until she stops fighting and it always works. 

At doggie day care the staff is always amazed at how quickly it shifts her from manic torpedo to sweet baby when I pick her up. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by _whits_

[pkcrossley]

oh, and about the pulling: there are lot of reasons to have a harness and not a collar on your cairn. because of their dwarfism cairns are already prone to back and neck problems. a harness is much safer then a collar. cairns pull and strain at the leash like no other dogs i've seen. there are lots of specific ways to train your dog to not pull, but in the meantime, get a harness (padded) strong enough that you can lift your cairn off the ground any time there is a problem --pulling, snarling, growling, whatever. you might not feel like laughing when your cairn is in full temper tantrum, but get equipment good enough to allow you to safely lift her a few inches off the ground and i guarantee it will look pretty funny. a few have commented on here that without a choke collar they cannot prevent their cairns from pulling; it can happen but you are not there yet. try not to get there. 

i feel i must also point out: raising a cairn to adulthood probably means you will get bitten at least once. it could be by accident when your dog is tantruming and not sure what she is doing. it could be a reflex when you make a move she is not expecting and her genes take over momentarily. and most self-respecting cairns will at least consider a bite to see if there is any advantage in it (make sure there isn't). however it happens, remember that it says nothing about your dog other than that she is a cairn, and that while it hurts like the dickens --in fact it is hard to think of anything that hurts quite as much as a good cairn bite-- it does not maim (unlike some other breeds). start early getting your cairn to understand that biting hurts you (it doesn't hurt dogs all that much so they think it is a funny play activity), and that not just biting is not allowed but that there are no circumstances at all when your cairn can touch you with her teeth. if she does, protest loudly and walk away. she will probably get it pretty fast. when my cairn, a particularly bitey puppy, was going through the terrible two's i used firestove mitts, a harness with a short leash that he wore all the time for a few weeks, and a well-prepared time-out room as my survival kit. we did fine. the harness and short leash was the bomb --one false move, up up and away to the time-out room. no fuss no muss. it impresses them to not have a way to scare anybody. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by pkcrossley

[Flatpick]

wow or should I say W O W!  more good stuff! a harness it is at least till she's a couple months old and we'll try a control collar. Dogband she's 10 weeks.  we have figured out that when the switch happens she's tired, cranky, maybe hungry, usually late afternoon.  She has been getting her way on walks for fear of hurting her throat.  we have a big yard with lots to see, sniff, dig, etc.  she really likes worms and rabbit poo.  once she gets a bit bigger I'm sure the rabbit will be toast! so.... we're also working on making the situations NOT happen by controlling the above.  Today we wrapped a big towel around her and quieted her w/o the roll.  worked well.

 

Thanks all again.

 

steve

[bradl]

10 hours ago, Flatpick said:

we're also working on making the situations NOT happen by controlling the above

Very smart. It is a so much easier to prevent a situation in the first place than it is to work out of something that has already happened.  We can't always control the environment, but when we could have and didn't we have only ourselves to blame  

That said, don't get in the habit of blaming yourself or taking it personally. Raising puppies it helps to take a long view.  Stay the course and don't worry about temporary setbacks.

[Sam I Am]

And I would like to add...suddenly they are grown up and you miss all the wonderful puppy cuteness . So although it might seem a bit of a test at the moment, it is part of the journey. Enjoy.

[Dogband1]

A couple more thoughts.  We got an Ipuppyone harness, small size for our 9 lb boy, to prevent the strain on his neck.  It has an adjustable girth like all harnesses, plus an adjustable neck opening.  $12 Amazon.  Also, a book, terrier centric training is a decent book, not any help with housetraining, but helps to understand the overall terrier mentality.

We also have a crate in our great room, where we all stay, in addition  to the sleeping crate in our bedroom.  We indeed noticed that a tired puppy gets cranky just like a kid, so when the out of control tantrums and behavior come, I hold him till he gets quiet, and then in the crate for a nap, and in 30 minutes to 1.5 hours out will emerge the sweet baby again.  

We generally demand he takes a nap early morning, and before lunch, and mid afternoon, and a short one-30 minutes, right after supper, up before 7 pm so he will sleep well at night.  We raised our first three while working, so they slept 4 hrs in morning and 4 in afternoon or more and they were fine.    We started out so excited with this new puppy that we kept him awake much too long the first week.  

I looked at the control harness , and read some reviews.  You decide,  probably not  for us, with one reservation.......... I might try to do both a lead to a harness to take 80% to 100% of the pulling, and a lead to the control harness when needed to exert just a bit of pressure when the pulling on the harness gets too much.  

For now, I have drastically lessened my walking goals. I wanted to do a 20 - 30 minute walk with Reilly, but that is too much for his 16 week brain.  We will just go till the pulling sets him off, then stop, hold him and regroup, using preferred treats to get him to follow sanely by my side, and repeat this in small increments, hopefully with positive results.  I also over the past two days just started gentle heel training down our hallway, without distractions, and with treats.  I am hopeful that this will help.  

Is flatpick an acoustic musician reference?  Any movies of piper on YouTube?  Search "Reilly Redsky" for our one movie up, more to come.  Best of luck.

[_whits_]

12 hours ago, Flatpick said:

we have figured out that when the switch happens she's tired, cranky, maybe hungry, usually late afternoon. 

Never underestimate the power of enforced naps, especially at that age. Addie used to get over-exhausted as a young puppy but would absolutely refuse to fall asleep; I think she was afraid she'd miss something super exciting. It got so bad she'd be so tired she'd be literally running in circles and into walls and closed doors. I'd plop her in the crate, and she would protest for about 3 minutes before I'd peek in there and find her totally asleep. She'd wake up a new dog. 

It was the dog version of the toddler screaming "I'M NOT TIRED" while rubbing their eyes. 

[sanford]

Dogband 1 - sounds to me like you are doing everything right. I guess with pups  you just have to keep doing it... Over and over and over...

When all else fails, I reccommend the " The Very Dry Martini School of Cairn Puppy Training"!

[Dogband1]

Been watching some zac George training videos on YouTube, the 101 training series, and one about dominance. I will not be using one of those collars that train thru avoiding negative punishment, avoiding the pain of the collar pinch.

thanks Sanford for words of encouragement.  

[Dogband1]

Down south we are the mint julep whiskey, Without mint and julep, to cope with this.

 

[Idaho Cairns]

While I enjoy reading about the travails of new Cairn pup owners, remembering my experience, I do believe we tend to "overthink" the solutions to the innate joie de vivre of the average Cairn puppy.  The very stubborn intelligence that comes with these little dogs is the very reason why they are, in my opinion, very easy to convert into really pleasant canine companions.
Cairns are smart, learn quickly, and are more than willing to grant authority to the human if approached with a clear, no nonsense, hand.  It's ok to buy what ever contraption you feel necessary to gain control but a simple snap collar and leash (gasp! An automatic one at that!) have always been adequate.  Slow going on those frequent outside adventures with plenty of firm hand and lots of verbal restraint, and encouragement, should be more than enough to get the owner and pup communicating in positive ways.  A slight jerk, with a "no!", should be used to move the pup along when they stop to investigate every dollop on the walk way, it is a gentle way of telling the Cairn, "I'm in charge, I decide, you listen!".  Which is what you want.
Spend lots of time communicating in a quiet, measured way, Cairns understand, even if they act like they don't.
Best advice, go slowly, quietly, and firmly, always be in control--your dog and neighbors will appreciate it.
Keep telling yourself, "This dog is smarter than he/she is showing at the moment" and then trust your advice to yourself.

[Flatpick]

good stuff!

 

steve