Cairn Search frustration and lengthy dissertation of thoughts

[Dogband1]

My disclaimer:  We are indeed in touch with a  few breeders, who most likely will have most excellent dogs.  This is not in reference to any of them, but more the process, which is mostly new and unknown to me.

Our history: we got our first Cairn in pre-internet days [gasp!] by reading at the library to find a breed that was made for us,  and calling the AKC.  He lived from 1987 to 1999.  We got our 2nd/3rd, brother and sister at the recommendation of the first breeder who had stopped breeding.  1999 to 2013/2015. 

Now we are in search of a single cairn, that would most perfectly be obtained in March thru June, after our emotions of loosing Brodee on Nov 9th have calmed a bit.  We are flexible however, and want a puppy is possible, but would consider a 1-2 year old.  We do not want to wait years as  I am 60, and want/hope to have two more Cairns in my life before I bite the dust, so 60 + 12/15 +12/15 = 84 and I'm gone. **  [Wish I had started Cairn ownership a bit earlier] . ** I'm strange, it is what it is.  At 60  you just embrace it.   Our last dog will be in our will with funding to find him/her a home, if necessary.

So here is my frustration.   We have never really had to search for our Cairns, and now we are, and the process is very confusing.

 We want a buddy, not a show dog from champions worth thousands of dollars each, not a puppy mill dog. Is there anything in between, and how would one sort this out?

One extreme IMO:  We were recently at show and saw a beautiful Cairn. The handler noted the owner lived 1500+ miles away and was not on site.  She was a professional handler. Granted getting a pup from this kennel would have ............. probably ............ maybe,  yielded a long lived,  healthy Cairn. BUT, the rub was-------how much did this person really care about the pup?  I'm not sure I want to support this person or kennel.   Maybe yes, maybe no, I simply do not know. 

Our three guys over almost 3 decades never stayed at a kennel ever, much less rode a plane to be shown at a dog show by a stranger.    We always got trusted friends to stay at our house and puppy  sit the house and pup or the babies went with us on the trip.  When we left them with the sitter, I was always worried and concerned.  This gives me concern, and I do not mean at all to offend anyone.  Maybe that is just how part of this works now. I do not know. 

I think I can spot a puppy mill. We actually did look at one place before our brother and sister were found in 1999.  She would not let me see the kennels, and always had puppies available.  16 years ago I ran from this one.  Puppy mill. 

So here are a bunch of stupid questions:

1. Is there a middle ground, where someone breeds good healthy Cairns that do not command the show breeder prices?  Is this slammed as a "backyard breeder"?

2.  More importantly------money is not the factor, but would paying a show breeder price of $1500 to $2000 or whatever, significantly increase my chance of getting a reasonably long, healthy life, or is it a bit like humans ...........a  crap shoot.   Some live long healthy, some bite the dust early, some have MIs at 46, like me.  [I have lived incredibly healthy, yet had a MI at 46.  Family history, breeding, who knows .........something got me] .

Finally, my wife and I were looking at other small breed terriers, but have re-settled back to finding a Cairn, or option two:  a rescue small mixed breed, and living with the memories of three of the most beautiful Cairns in the world. 

Beyond the advice of:  slow down, let your emotions settle .............. what other advice would one have for us?    Stick to champion breeders as the cost is well worth what you get, and anything less is risky?   I can see that. Anything else?

Sorry for the ramblings. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Dogband1

[bradl]

Generally speaking the pets placed from a good breeder have the exact same pedigree as the one or two dogs they have selected from those litters as the best-of-the-best for showing purposes.

From what I've seen the cost is the same "pet or show." The price is what it is because the cost of getting that litter is the same whether the dog turns out to be their best ever, or maybe it falls shorter of the mark than one of its litter mates. It's not like there is a tier of "quality' puppies and another cheaper line of "discount" puppies. An investment is made, the die is cast, the best of the best is either kept or placed in a show home, but all are placed with care into loving homes. Some of those homes will show the dog. That's about it.

Life is indeed a crap shoot so what you are getting is improved odds. You're getting a dog where the breeder knows (and cares) where and from what the dog descends. You're getting a dog who's family health history is better known and has been actively researched.

There are no magic tests that guarantee a lifetime of health, but there are screening tests that reduce or eliminate the prevalence of certain types of disorders. Read the health related concerns page of the national club for information about the types of health conditions typically relevant with Cairns. The quality breeders know about all of them and do the testing that is recommended and proven relevant.  Most casual breeders pooh-pooh testing and pedigree research (and showing) because of course they must since they don't bother with any of it. Dogs from these breeders are often half or a third the price of pups from people who are most likely losing money hand over fist on a hobby (breeding and showing Cairns) that they are trying to do right. 

These same conscientious breeders are also often cleaning up the mess left by the casual  and backyard business breeders. The Cairns we see in rescue are not coming from the people I know. When one shows up locally we can usually figure out where it did come from:  our local "discount" breeders who are  "just breeding quality pets."  For some reason they don't seem to take their own dogs back when the need arises.  I don't know a single breeder in our club who would not take back (or facilitate rehoming) any dog they themselves have bred.  Indeed they pretty much all have a contract that the buyer swears they will return the puppy to the breeder if ever they cannot keep it, for the life of the dog. 

These quality breeders also provide a lifetime of support.  

In the early days of this forum I often asked, "What does your breeder say?" to questions until I finally understood that many people don't have access to their breeder.  I understand this for breeders of old who have left this earthly plane, but I surely don't understand it otherwise.  A good breeder will be your mentor and often your friend for a lifetime. I treasure the friendships I have with the people from whom we've gotten our Cairns. We are in some sense "related" through the dogs.

In fact, if I had to  distill my thoughts into one thing, it would be keep looking until you find a breeder you are utterly comfortable with. From there, things tend to work out. 

As a related postscript, the national club doesn't seem to be featuring the location-based search I set up for them some years ago, but they still maintain a listing by state:

Breeder Referral - Listed by State

While most breeders don't react well to "email blasts" from people looking to buy a puppy they DO tend to react well to thoughtful personal contact from people doing their homework and asking about the breed,  how to find a good puppy etc. These are people you can look for at local shows (they are often showing their own dogs) and perhaps call to talk to.  

My observation over the years is that generally speaking good breeders are pretty wary of where their puppies go. Often what feels like a bit of a rebuff is them probing to find out what you know, how terrier-like you are, and so on. Taking the time to get to know them and let them get to know you will go a very long way to smoothing the process of getting a puppy. To the breeder the placement is an adoption and transfer, not a transaction.

And uh, don't feel bad for rambling. You can see I've got it worse than anybody. Time to head out to my local meeting of On and On Anon.   

 

[Idaho Cairns]

I purchased my last Cairn by using the internet--the breeder used videos of the litter, provided references that could be checked and we got a very good dog, a year later my daughter bought an equally fine dog from the same breeder--and this breeder was in Missouri, a state known for having a bunch of puppy mills.
I'm sure some puppy mill people are sophisticated enough to create videos and communications that hide their true purpose but I think if you are persistent enough, patient enough, you can sift thru the clutter and find a great dog on the internet. 
I would, as usual, try to locate suitable pups close enough to visit the breeder and see for yourself what you are buying but if you live, as we do, in an area of the country where Cairns are rare, that might not be an option.
As far as "health" goes, it is always a crapshoot but Cairns are, by and large, a healthy breed of dog--tending to be long lived.
I would certainly talk to show people but my experience with that route has been similar to yours--often the owner of the dog is not present and when they are, aren't inclined to commit to selling a dog from any future litters--they seem to have plenty of folks lined up for puppies.
If I were in the market, I would use the internet and then, once a promising litter was available, I would do all the homework I could to determine the quality of the pup that was offered.

[Tami]

We have three cairns that we bought from breeders. The second two were from the person who recommended the first dog to us. Yes, it was a bit frustrating to research and find the right people. In the end we opted not to get one from the local club because we were rebuffed and made to feel not welcomed by the people who were in charge of coordinating puppies with their club members. Finally we went out of the area and found someone via a friend of a friend of a friend who shows a different breed of agility dogs that we knew from a car club racing group. 

Our dogs were picked up by us by car (long drive and overnight stays at dog friendly hotels) and haven't ever been in a plane. I can attest that our breeder would help to rehome the dogs if anything happened. For a scary month or so we thought that we'd have to do that with our third dog due to allergies but finally was able to get a routine down that prevented that. But I do know that our pup, Frankie, would have been placed in a loving home if that had happened. I would only have to worry about the sadness of giving him up. (Thank goodness that didn't happen. He's such a cuddlebug!)

I'm sure that if you look around and then share your background of owning three lovely cairns that you should have no troubles finding a breeder who's willing to work with you to find you a nice puppy, or a slightly older pup that they kept a bit longer to see if they'd shape up to be a show dog. (We've met such dogs and they are a joy to their owners.)

We felt more confident in a breeder who was actively working on trying to keep the breed standard up ... mating pairs together to improve head shape, etc as well as keeping good dispositions, etc ... than we would have been with a backyard breeder who just pairs together dogs without really studying the pedigree backgrounds.

Good luck!

[Hillscreek]

Agree with much of what has been said above. In my day have shown dogs and have been a "backyard breeder". Have bought dogs from show breeders and from "backyard breeders". People who breed dogs conscientiously but don't show them can get a bad name being "lumped in" with breeders who just put two dogs together to make money from the sale of the puppies. People who show sometimes think they and their dogs are "better" than any others. Not always the case. Ch before name is not a guarantee of Ch pups, or alas of Ch morals.

Important not to generalize. Show breeders are not all perfect caring folks regarding their dogs. Backyard beeders are not all monsters abusing dogs for dollars.

It's like anything else - buyer beware.

We live in a remote area here. When I bought I Angus I searched the Internet and emailed and called many breeders. You can tell quite a bit that way if you have your list of questions ready. I decided I needed to find someone near enough I could go visit. Took a while but finally I talked with a lady who had had and bred cairn terriers for many years just because she and her family liked them. She said she occasionally had a show quality pup but was not interested in showing. She studied pedigrees, and health. She had three generations living in the home. She did not sell to just anyone who wanted a pup. We emailed, then we talked on the phone and then finally I went to visit. I think if at all possible this is a must. This visit was a four hour drive one way in another State.

I really got the feel of the place and saw the adult dogs around and was introduced to the pups' parents. The four pups were gathered for me in a big clean grassy pen. I didn't really mind what color or sex. I was more more interested in temperament and health. Very few show cairns are close to the standard nowadays so I wasn't bothered about that. We spent quite a long time chatting and playing with the pups. I had lots of questions for her and she had lots for me. That's the way I like to do business. When it was time to choose a pup we chose together. Angus came to live with me fours years ago. He was three months old. His breeder and I keep in touch and I know she will take him back if there was an emergency. 

My advice is take your time. Write down a list of questions you want answers to. Look for someone who will question you. Be open to possibilities - a pup, an older dog, a rescue cairn. Any one might be the one. You have a big advantage having owned cairns before. We had terriers with our retrievers but Angus is my first cairn. I have never regretted it. Its true what they say life is merrier with a cairn terrier. Angus is such a healthy, fun lively little terror  oh surely I didn't mean that...... I mean a healthy,fun, lively, loving, snuggling, little.......

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Sam I Am]

I also mostly agree but with a few comments. My DH Cairn (before I met him) no doubt was a puppy mill dog. I came on the scene when Pepi was 10 yrs old. She seemed to be relatively healthy but did have kidney failure by 11 and we had to euthanize her. We then went to a big recognized show looking for another Cairn however met one of Canada's leading Scottie breeders and judge and fell in love with a young bitch who was 5 1/2 months old. The most lovely Scottie to see ...people would stop us and comment how beautiful she was. And she was, but from the get go we battled IBD, vets bills over the moon. She did live longer than most Scotties (average age is 10.5 yrs  ) and made it almost to 12 yrs. She had a pedigree richer than the queen of England. But and this is a big issue for me at least, check the breeding history and you will see line breeding and even in-breeding.  I suppose this is to get the most perfect dog physically that one can...although in my opinion a terrible thing to do. This does nothing but weaken the health of these dogs. A breeder in our province who had shown Scotties didn't have one lasted beyond 10.5 yrs. And their pedigree was all about line breeding! Next came Jock my beloved Cairn bought from a reputable breeder also. At 6 yrs of age was diagnosed as having active chronic hep. Again vet bills that would have bought a new car but he had a good life till cancer got him at almost 13yrs of age. Now we have Rosie our current Scottie. She is from a non showing breeder. Not a puppy mill but a recreational breeder (if I can use that term). We paid $700 for her as there was no way we could afford the $3000 price tag from a show kennel. She has had a few ups and down but other wise...touch wood, is a lively healthy 3.5 yr old dog. Would Rosie make it in the show ring...no way, but when looking at her Canadian Kennel club registration there isn't any sign of in or line breeding. Will it make her live longer. Who knows. It is a crap shoot. They did provide a health guarantee  and I did have blood work done on her to make sure the dreaded liver shunt issues were not there,. So to wrap up this lengthy note, there are no guarantees in life. Period.

[hheldorfer]

Buffy is my first Cairn.  She came from a no-kill shelter nearby and had been surrendered by her owners because she "didn't get along" with their 3-year-old.  Buffy was probably from a backyard breeder (possibly a puppy mill), she has no pedigree and is *way* too big (based on Cairn breed standards), but she is as much a Cairn as any other.   Although I completely understand your wish to get a Cairn puppy from a reputable breeder, I can also assure you that a rescued Cairn would be a wonderful companion.  True, you may have to work with the dog to help it unlearn bad behaviors but the reward is amazing.  That said, I wholeheartedly agree with the above advice to take your time and be patient.  All I would add is that you shouldn't discount the possibility of adopting an adult Cairn who needs a home.   Good luck on your search and don't give up!

[Lynn in TN]

I agree with a lot of the comments. My personal experience I didn't have much luck with show breeders.I believe there are good and bad in all breeders and you have to use your gut instinct. Being in area not far from you, and have nothing but failures from show breeders. I went in search of a Cairn by internet and found a breeder 2 hours away. I call her a backyard breeder but she did show her Cairns the first few years. She wanted me and my children to visit, and we got to meet and interact with all of her dogs she had fifteen (not including the puppies) 2 of the adult females were spayed and would never be bred. One was a take back, developed a leaky bladder, she was 4 years old. One had a eye infection that reoccured when a puppy so she kept her, she did not want to take a chance of her ending up in a shelter, that dog was 2. 

What I looked for when I visited more than once: I played with each of her adult dogs, I looked at how well there fur was kept, did they have matts in there fur, was it clean that kind of thing. How they reacted with me, temperaments of each dog.How did they react with my sons ages 8 and 14 at the time. How did she interact with the dogs? Was she calm but firm. Did they mind her to please or, or did they act fearful? Playful and minded most of the time, none of them acted fearful, you could tell they loved her and she loved them.  I had a sense of peace when I was there and so did my kids. It was a loving atmosphere.  She answered all of my questions a lot better than I expected. She did her homework on her dogs and explained everything. I would have taken any of her adult dogs in a heartbeat. Actually I would have taken them all. haha  

Kelly is my first Cairn she weighs 14 pounds and is in good health at 4 1/2 years old. I wish I had of broke contract and not spayed Kelly I would like to have a whole litter of puppies from her and I would have kept them all.

[_whits_]

I got my Addie (age 4) from a Cairn rescue group (there are two big ones - Cairn Rescue USA and Col. Potter's Cairn Rescue, but Cairns also show up in other rescues and shelters). Her mother was rescued from a puppy mill while pregnant and I took Addie home at 11 1/2 weeks old. Addie and the 15 other Cairns rescued with her (from newborn to 7 years old) all came from a terrible facility - in-between a backyard breeder and an industrial puppy farm - but all of them are healthy, happy, loving dogs. The older ones have had to deal with the psychological impact of years of confinement, yes, but their families haven't regretted getting them. 

If having a dog that might have health issues is a concern to you, it is still possible to get a rescue Cairn that hasn't suffered from mental and physical neglect. Indeed, many purebred dogs who are sold as non-show dogs - particularly ones that aren't puppies - are raised in a kennel environment and therefore have similar adjustment issues to dogs from shelters and mills. I almost adopted a 2 year-old "failed" show dog from a breeder for $1000+ and while I'm certain she would have grown to be a lovely dog, she had spent 2 years in kennels and cages, not in a home with a family. 

From my experience with the rescue who let me adopt my Addie, many, many of the Cairns in rescues are perfectly healthy dogs looking at long lives. The majority of Cairns who end up in Addie's rescue are there due to i) people adopting a dog breed they aren't prepared for (terriers aren't for everyone); ii) people who experience life changes that prevent them from keeping their dogs (loss of job or home); and iii) elderly people who adopt Cairns that outlive them. 

I've had 6 dogs in my life, 3 of whom have been terriers. 1 terrier (JRT) was purebred from a breeder who trains Hollywood dogs, and my wonderful Freckles died at 12 years old from kidney failure. My other terrier was Freckles' daughter (the result of a rendezvous with a neighborhood mutt before Freckles was spayed) and she lived 17 years. As I said, my Cairn Addie came from a puppy mill and has had absolutely no major health problems thus far (knock on wood). I had a purebred Golden Retriever who lived a healthy and normal 10+ year life. I had a Maltese I rescued from a pet store who lived 14 years, but had health problems her entire life (including Cushings). Finding the right dog (temperament, health, etc.) is in many ways a crapshoot, and I don't think breeder = best and rescue = worst. I think you can find great, healthy dogs from almost any background. And I think you can find unhealthy, poorly bred dogs at almost any price.

I think the money you pay is not going to correlate to the lifespan of your dog. It's about finding the right dog with the right background for you. The more you know about the dog's history - how much in-breeding does the breeder allow, why did the previous owners not keep it, why is the dog in a shelter, what has its living conditions been (a kennel, a home?), how does it get along with you, has it shown any health issues - the better you can make the right choice, but I think you can find the right dog from breeders and rescues and shelters.