Can dogs understand "timeout" discipline

[DemiSheep]

We've been putting Attila in his play-pen sometimes when he's naughty, and I was wondering if dogs can understand what it means.

Have any of you ever seen that the dog understood and changed his behavior for the better?

Attila will play bite us and we'll correct him and sometimes put him in his playpen for a timeout. But after I get him out he'll play bite again sometimes right away and back in he goes. So I am starting to doubt it does any good. Most of the time I just put him on his side to correct him, but sometimes I don't have the time to sit there holding him on the ground.

[Idaho Cairns]

Just keep grasping the snout and repeat the "NO BITE" command until he figures it out. Yes, eventually even the hardest headed Cairn will make the connection. Cairns must learn what "No" means or you'll just be treading water with them. Once they get it you can get on with all the other stuff they need to know.

[montdoug]

Dogs don't connect what happened even 30 seconds ago to whats happening now so "time out" gives you a break but the dog isn't going to connect the undesired behavior to the timeout.

I grew up training dogs in a dog raising family and a lot of things have changed over the years but not all the changes are necessarily better in my opinion. As far as a specific behavior such as biting hands while playing I'd go back to whats worked for me since I was knee high to a duck. First, hands aren't toys. Never rough up the puppy in play with your hands unless you want your fingers bit, you have fingers but the puppies fingers are it's teeth. Use toys to play with

Next for me is the puppy learning the word "no". Not "NO!" but "no", short but firm. Once learned that word is the catch all for any undesired behavior. Puppies on a leash and lunges for the cat, short, quick tug on the leash and a firm but regular decibel "no" and an instant release on the leash (don't jerk the poor thing). Puppy looks at you and ignores the cat as you walk by and the instant your past the cat, praise, praise, praise cause it's doing the right behavior. Your happy, puppies love to please you so it's happy and soon the positive behavior is the one both you and the puppy focus on.

With my dogs and knowing puppies like to bite when playing I'd do the following. I'm playing with the puppy and it starts to bite my fingers, one quick "no" and just stop playing and ignore the puppy. Puppy comes back over in a minute or two and doesn't bite and praise, praise, praise. Praise the desired behavior and ignore the puppy when the behaviors bad. That little pup lives to make you happy and is dying for your attention, ignoring it and showing slight displeasure for a short period of time will have a stronger behavior changing effect that isolating for even 5 minutes in my opinion as it's forgotten what the bad behavior was 10 seconds after it's over.

That is all totally my opinion and old school I know but has worked for me with many dogs. I truly hope I don't sound like some kind of a know it all or condescending in any way. I also know there are going to be others that think I'm full of it and that's ok too. Everyone trains their dog different to some degree or another I'm sure. I just do what's worked for me over the years.

Sure hope ya get it figured out cause puupy teeth are sharp .

[pkcrossley]

in my experience with cairns and westies --they absolutely understand timeout, so long as it is prompt and they have every reason to associate it with their bad behavior. i don't know about other dogs, but terriers understand this. they even understand if you just get up and go to another room and refuse to associate with them. they hate being ostracized and they understand social signals extremely well.

if your response is prompt enough and clear enough that, say, a one year old infant could get it, your cairn can get it. and most will respond in such a way as to get back in your good graces again.

of course there are a lot of tough cookies among cairns, and you might well have to resort to other methods to actually get compliance. but if your question is: do they understand it? definitely. but with cairns, understanding and doing are two different things.

[finncaraid]

The pen seemed to work with Finn somewhat when he was learning. I made it into a smaller area as opposed to full condo size so he'd understand the difference, which he did after a few times. I didn't want him to see his pen as discipline every time he was in it. Since leaving the room didn't seem to be as effective, the pen was enough for him to feel he was being socially separated. The time he spent in the pen was never more than 5 minutes, unless I knew that his persistence was due to tiredness as opposed to orneriness. Since Finn seldom slept as a wee bairn, sometimes you had to confine him so he'd rest. I'd immediately pick him up while saying "no bite" & deposit him in the pen. He learned quickly what no bite meant. This, for us, was far more effective than any other training method. I'd say it took maybe 2x & he understood the message. Not that he'd listen & stop, but he would pause when he heard "no bite" before resuming. It was repeating, repeating, repeating the words & action consistently over time that made him realize that he was facing a bigger, more determined terrier. As far as wording the command, I never did use just "no". Thought that word was too ambiguous & Finn needed a specific. Otherwise, he'd just look at me like "no what? no breathe, no stand, no play, no blink, what are you saying no to?". I still don't say "no" 'cause he's a lot bigger & a whole lot smarter than he was back then so now he claims that I'm not giving him proper direction -----------------------------Know you must be at your wits end with the biting but, right now, Attila is still learning self-control. Cairns are such enthusiastic little creatures that this is the hardest thing he'll ever learn. The good part is that once they learn it, they are masters at it. Just like everything else they learn.

[montdoug]

With all due respect to all with different methods I'd ask, do folks really think a dog has a vocabulary and understands a specific word such as "bite"? I'd contend the real effect is in our tone and the dogs eagerness to please us. If you were to say the word "apple" with a firm and disappointed tone in conjunction with your denying the dog your affection for a quick period do you think the little guy or gal would think "well gee, that's a silly thing to say?" Or possibly sense the down tone in the way we said it and feel "Bummer, Moms not happy" then lower it's ears and wag it's tail slow? I'll bet we're all familiar with that dejected look your dog gets when it knows it's done something to make you unhappy. Their emotional sensitivity is amazing!

Dogs respond to our tone and immediate response to the behavior either negative or positive to reinforce or diminish a specific behavior. One word commands that are short and delivered firmly and consistently work much better than statements. "Come", "Sit", "Stay" "Down", "Back", "No". In reality the word doesn't matter. Emotionally quick dogs like Cairns or Airedales are amazingly attuned to our emotional response to them and they have a tremendous desire to please us. Whether it's in training an Airedale (which are Terriers also) for police service work or socializing a two year old female Cairn that's spent most of it's life in kennels, crates and show rings to come to terms with laying on the couch next to a couple cats and take a nap in a two week period when cats are completely foreign to her. On the up side that's one of the best parts of having a dog, figuring out how to best communicate with it. Cairns are fascinating to work with in training cause they are so quick but as posted above, there is a nugget of complete independence in some of em that defies common logic and makes em such a special breed to train and gives ya such a wonderful feeling when that connection is made and they really start to not only get it but get into it . Gus is 5 now and he will: come, sit, stay, down, (go) left, (go) right, stop, sit, down, sit, come, whatever. He'll do it at 50 or 75 yards out with either voice or silent hand commands. The whole time we're working his little tail is straight up in the air and wagging a hundred miles an hour. It has been such a treat to work with him "BUT". As mentioned and like no other dog I've ever trained, if he sees a ground squirrel and takes off after it it's like some little hand reached up and flipped the switch that shut off his brain and turned on pure instinct. It's that amazingly acute prey instinct we've all read about and as owners we have to be so aware of that lest an off leash frolic in the woods turn into a tragedy.

Again, just my personal opinions.

[pkcrossley]

wel, it is interesting, recent testing shows that dogs do indeed understand words, though like all of us they understand them in context. if you use "apple" to mean "no" then your dog will think apple means no --and so will your child if trained the same way. testing also shows that dogs can do a certain amount of abstract thinking, as can horses, which was a surprise to me. but it seems to be absolutely true, as montdoug says, that the tone and the context do most of the work in getting the initial meaning across. but once a dog begins to pick up on language its vocabulary grows fast, and they do distinguish between words they know even when the tone is exactly the same (as with dogs who know the names of their toys, and in testing some dogs have been able to learn the names of up to 200 toys. there aren't 200 different tones in english to name toys with). my dog redmon picks up on words he recognizes when listening to me talk to other people. his reaction is very clear and distinct, even if he got the context in which i was using the word wrong. if he hears "out," "walk," "bed," "carrot," "cookie" or dozens of other words, his recognition and expectations (even if mistaken because he didn't get the rest of the conversation) is unmistakable.

"Otherwise, he'd just look at me like "no what? no breathe, no stand, no play, no blink, what are you saying no to?" it think that's hilarious and i can see any cairn doing that. it isn't about what "no" means, it is about the fact that cairns don't respond well to people who don't finish their thoughts --in speaking or in training. emphatic, definite and complete words and actions seem to go down better.

i think montdoug is overwhelmingly right that your response has to be prompt, as prompt as can be. but my terriers have learned quickly to understand that "timeout" ( i never used the word, just the action) means the same as walking away or being ignored, only stronger. if the context is clear and the response is consistent, a dog is not going to confused about what it means.

[montdoug]

I think I see what you mean. We have to spell the word ball or Gus will tear around the house till he finds it and chase us around with it till the game of fetch ensues. If we say "Ya wanna go outside?" he tears for the back door and in just a couple weeks Kat has picked that one up as well. So I do see where a number of actions have been connected in his mind to specific words when the actions always go with the words so they do indeed connect certain behaviors to specific words. Point taken.

As I said earlier a lot of people train their dogs with a lot of different techniques, so to each their own. I do know that after initial leash training and basic "come", "sit", "no", "go", "down", "stay". A quick, sharp "no", with a negative inflection will stop any behavior my dog is involved in cold, it catches their attention and and they look at me for further instruction. Not in fear but in anticipation of "What's next boss?" Be it chewing something they shouldn't or jumping up on a stranger, whatever, it's been a staple of basic training for me for the 50+ years I've been training dogs. The most glaring exception to that is a Cairn that has it's eye's locked on running prey. These last 5 years while training Gus he's been training me back and proved the old adage you can teach and old Doug new tricks (but it's difficult at times ) . I know that a well trained and socialized dog is a relaxed, contented, calm, and polite dog, a "happy dog" if you will.

Sure don't mean to be argumentative and I apologize if this is coming off that way, you obviously know and love your dogs and how you've accomplished that has worked for you and them both so ya sure can't argue with that. My method works well for me both with our pets and dogs I've trained for others privately and in the Military. As we say out here in the west, "there are a lotta different ways around the barn".

P.S.

Interesting perspective on abstract thinking in dogs and horses, I'll have to research that. As to horses as many as you grow up around and break on a ranch I have a tough time with, a pig maybe (way smart) but not so sure about the horse concept. Maybe I'll learn something else new before this is all over.

[pkcrossley]

the horse research greatly surprised me because my experience with horses had convinced me that they are the total opposite of abstract thinkers. and i also don't see the use of abstract thinking in their world. however, it turns out that the right testing could bring it out. the basic test was: each horse walked into a stall with two covered buckets. the experimenters were behind the wall and would put grain into the correct bucket if the horse approached it. over one bucket was a large circle and over the other a small square. the large circle was the correct answer, and each horse was given three tries, and they all got it correct by try three. then the positions of the signs were reversed and all horses got it right after three tries. so the horses were thinking 'i go toward the circle' and there's nothing abstract about that. then the signs were replaced with two circles, one small and one large. the idea was to go for the larger circle. after three tries most horses got it right but not all. then the signs were replaced again, by a small square and a large square. about a third of the horses eventually figured it out --the idea was to go for the larger symbol, no matter whether it was a square or a circle, and no matter whether it was on the left or the right. i was astonished by this (but still can't imagine what a horse does its abstract thinking).