A New Cairn is joining the family and I have some questions about introducing a bit older Cairn to a house ful of siblings?

[montdoug]

Howdy all. Though it's been a long time this great site and all the fine folks on it haven't been forgotten. I'm sure you won't remember me but possibly my best buddy Gus and his best buddy Merlin might ring a few bells. Here they are when Gus was about an 10 month old pup taking a nap together as I worked on the computer. To anyone that might remember these two they still sleep all balled up together to this day. 4 other cats to be best friends with and Merlin still picks Gus instead, "smart cat".

Here Gus is at about 4 years all grown up.

Our situation is this. Gus is 5 now, neutered and about the best dog in the world with the exception of course of all your dogs to you folks. He has 5 count em 5 feline siblings all of whom he gets along with fine (actually there is one ole sorehead but he has an attitude problem and Gus just ignores him completely).

Today I got a call from Gus's breeder whom we've kept in touch with over the years. She has one of her females that has spent her life in the show ring and at 2 years old she is I believe they call it finished? In other words she's a Champion in the ring. This particular little girl suddenly developed an aversion to the hustle and bustle of dog shows and without going into a long story she no longer wants to show her and because of the sudden ring aversion doesn't want her bred but instead make sure she's spayed and place her in a good home. That's where we come in.

We've been wanting another Cairn but both the new little gals emotions as well as the cats and Gus's stability are all involved I want to make sure I'm making a rational decision that's good for all concerned before heading into a lifetime commitment.

So.......For the breeders and multiple Cairn and possibly feline owners I wanted some pointers on situations as well as possible pitfalls I might consider. One issue I'm concerned with is while my breeder has a lovely facility for her dogs they are kennel not house raised dogs as our pets are. I've heard female small dogs are sometimes more difficult to housebreak than males so does a 2 year old female raised basically in a kennel, crate or show ring present housebreaking problems in a home setting? I should add I'm told this little girl has a somewhat shy personality much unlike Gus who is convinced he's king of the world. I should also add I grew up in a family that raised German Shepard's, Boxers and Airedales so I've had (at the risk of sounding like an ego maniac) considerable experience training large dogs but Gus is the first small dog and I've yet to work with a small breed female.

There it is, sorry this is so long but any thought's or opinions would be greatly valued and appreciated. On one hand I feel like a 12 year old kid bouncing back and forth from one foot to the other in excitement over the new addition to the family but with 50 years added to that 12 I've learned to weigh the costs with pets based on a lot more than excitement and desire. Thanks all.

[pindrop]

Well unfortunately I can't really help you from an experienced point of view - I would be responding with gut feelings. Welcome back Montdoug first of all. I can understand your concern on the many levels that this situation merits discussion. On the one hand you have a female who has never lived inside a home and who perhaps has never met cats. I wouldn't necessarily worry about her meeting Gus as I am assuming that having lived in a kennel, she would have exposure to other dogs. I think you may have to start from scratch with housetraining her - then she will need to be trained on how to respond to your cat situation. I would imagine she will have to continue to live in a restricted area to begin with till you have settled the above two issues. Next on the list would be how to introduce her and Gus. As you mention, you have stayed in touch with her breeder so perhaps you can bring Gus to her home and in a restricted area - introduce her to Gus and take it from there. My goodness, I don't blame you for being excited on the one hand but you will have quite the road ahead of you. Should you choose to accept the breeder's offer, I guess I'd want the assurance that if things don't work out with her in your home that she would take her back. Now that you have opened this can of worms, you realize we won't let you off the hook without following up with us all on whatever decision you make. Good luck!

[Idaho Cairns]

I would take the dog in a New York second! Only one thing is better than one Cairn and that is two Cairns. If I had the opportunity to get a show quality bitch from the breeder that produced the very dog I love so much (your Gus), I wouldn't even hesitate, I would say "How soon can you get her here?" I know nothing about female Cairns being hard to house break, it certainly hasn't been a problem in this house and you do have Gus to show her the way. Younger Cairns have a tendency to model on older dogs so Gus's personality will probably transfer to a certain degree.

My advice, based on my experience? Yes!

[montdoug]

pindrop as to the return option it is not only ok to bring her back but return to her is mandatory if things don't work out, no passing the lil gal on to someone else. This breeder is very particular who gets dogs, references from vets etc required.

Idaho any dog that modeled it's personality after Gus would be a fine dog indeed, just not so sure at 2 years?

[bradl]

I would not worry at all about the two years thing. Their individual personalities will be the driving factor more than the age. Indeed a two year old is a near perfect age to get a dog. They are almost sane by that time

I understand your trepidation as the first Cairn I ever met was a six-month old kennel dog and I could not imagine this jumping jack in my house. Fortunately the next breeder we visited had eight bitches of various ages circulating around the house (which was full of antique dolls, I might add) and it was clear that Cairns were fine house dogs. Oddly enough, at this point I now know that the bouncing kennel dog would also have settled in fine - it would have just taken some patience on my part to give him time to ( a ) grow up, and ( b ) learn some manners. These are incredibly adaptable dogs.

From the way you describe the breeder, I would also suspect she would not even consider the placement if she didn't think it would work out just fine.

[Idaho Cairns]

I know about the behavior modeling in older dogs because I have seen it in rescues we have had. Perhaps it comes about because we humans reinforce and reward behaviors we want in our current dog and the new dog simply figures it all out so what we see as "modeling" is nothing more than a smart dog adapting to the humans and what they want. In any case the behavior is often striking. I have been observing the synchronicity between our dogs in terms of smaller behaviors lately and am trying to document them on film. While they have very different reactions to some stimuli, waiting to be taken for a walk, excitement, receiving affection, etc. in smaller and less obvious ways they do things the same way. Going to the door to watch the squirrels, they sit exactly the same way, studying a far away object, the same look (see my avatar), and lately, they come out of the kitchen to the deck to bask in the sun and will make the same reclining moves, yawns, sighs, and small, relaxed tail wags as they drift off in sleep, lying exactly the same way. I hope to catch this on film but have been unsuccessful.

So, my theory goes--If you have a well mannered, trained Cairn in your home, when you bring a new dog into the mix and you are involved in the process, it is likely that the behaviors you "like" will transfer to the new dog from the older "Model" dog. That is why I am so supportive of two Cairn households. This is especially important to housebreaking puppies--with an older and faithful guide, pups learn the house breaking "ropes" a lot quicker than if you have to go it alone with the puppy.

[MegsMom]

I think more the question is how is Gus around other dogs, how has he been if/when they've visited for several days?

I've housebroken all ages of puppymill kids, and don't believe I could say either male or female are harder to housebreak. The difference might be more with how 'marking obsessive' are they, and both sexes can/do mark, the more prone, they should use 'drawers' in the house (bellyband for boys, bitches britches for girls). Rather than give them some 'free' (undressed in the house) time, I prefer to keep them in 'preventions' longer to make sure the lesson is understood, since I think if you slip up & don't see the marking, then you may end up with a 'sneak maker' and have to start the lesson over. On the plus side, you'd be working with a fully mentally developed adult, capable of bodily control, so the housebreaking should go faster. Plus you have a housebroken 'leader' to demonstrate proper manners, so trips outside will be less often, although do observe the "first thing in the morning", "after play" and "after eating" potty training rules. As for differences in cairn sexes, I find females tend to be more independent, 'do their own thing' a bit more than most males. Given the girl's reported shy attitude, she very likely will blossom in a less competitive-for-attention atmosphere of a kennel situation, and as females tend to 'rule the roost' despite what may be said, I think in time you'll see she'll be ruling. [You have to remember the mark of a great ruler is you don't actually see them ruling, they do it subtly and calmly. I've had one velvet-paw-ruling bitch and am watching another develop-- quite interesting. I've also had 'bully' females come in here, and me fully informed, set them up to not allow their behaviors, have in the end questioned "Huh? Who, her, a bully? Haven't seen it (one turned out to be a really delightful personality).]

Your delimma is more of how she'll respond to the cats, and at 2yrs, that can probably be 'shaped' some. It'll depend on what her prior experience with cats is, if the kennel had some around, and collectively everybody barked when a cat was seen &/or rushed fences. I'd recommend her 'living' in a harness and short leash for a while, so you'll have a control handy as she learns the cats are part of her new household and how she's supposed to act around them--again, don't underestimate the value of Gus 'showing her the ropes' there--but keep a keen eye on her reactions towards them outside, until she learns the cats' territory is outdoors, too. Awfully funny to see mine spot a cat in the yard, and glance back if theirs is out with them, to double-check it's not him, then continue barking at a 'wrong' cat:) And they may spot theirs coming into the yard, start to bark & rush, then realize "oops" and try to act as if it never happened.

My vote: Hope you're picking her up this weekend? And definitely give her a crate, remember she's used to having limited 'her' space, so she'll need that safety zone for sanctuary--preferably where she can view the family-goings-ons, she'll learn by observation, too. Gus may not seem particularly glad to see her and less so as he realizes she's staying, but that should resolve as he adapts, too. Probably seem very normal to have 2 in about 2-3wks, but you'll probably need to be on guard regarding the cats for some time --their attitudes may provide some indication of how that's really going.

.

[montdoug]

Well, the questions are being answered as I type this. I didn't get back to you sooner cause I was driving...... .

Gus is a big Cairn, my new little "Thief of Hearts" isn't, she's about exactly breed standard an is very petite in comparison. That didn't stop her from launching into him out in the back yard when he overstepped his boundaries with her, she does after all still have her Cairn Terrier roots to defend! That aside, within minutes they were running at breakneck speed around Gus's kingdom as he showed her the ropes...."the bunnies live under this shed and their really quick"...."here's where we can run the length of the acre and a half fence and race Mud, he's the concrete contractor neighbors hound and he barks funny when ya race him", "and here's where the gopher's live", "and here's".........

So much for the concern about her and her new pal Gus.

She loves the crate, even in the active living room of a home full of cats, speaking of cats, when the first one walked up to sniff the new room-mate in the crate she turned into 12lbs of Cairn Terrier again, we'll be working on cat tolerance next. She's being kept on the leash in the house as advised and directly under my control at all times she's not in the crate. That had been my intent before bringing her home both for the cats sake, and the house breaking test and training .

After a life of kennels and crates at dog shows she seems content to just set on my lap tonight and occasionally look up and lick my chin as if to make sure I'm real. A lot to absorb for one little girl in a two day period but we got lots of time for her to realize "We ain't in Kansas anymore Dorthy"!

As mentioned she is indeed a "Thief of Hearts" and the first one she collected I have to admit was mine . That's cause I saw her first when we got there, 20 seconds later she collected my beloved brides.

i

[josie&holly]

My Holly was four and half when she came to me from a breeder having been "retired" as she had been shown then had two litters. At first she was a bit independent but gradually became the loving and lovely girl she is now [3 yrs later] however she claimed my heart from the first moment I saw her standing in the concrete run.

Housetraining was not problem - she had lived in kennel[for sleeping] and concrete run and was used to going out to the run to poop/pee so she had about three accidents in house and then fine. She does not tend to tell me she wants to go out even now but I pop her out regularly. She was not keen on walks at first - but now she walks well.

I think after a life spent competing with 10 other Cairns for attention she loves the attention she gets now [all for her!] and I am sure your "thief of hearts" will settle really well. Gus will enjoy the company too.

Unfortunately, Holly believes cats are for chasing/barking at and I have never had the chance to show her any different.

[pindrop]

Oh wow....I didn't think you would be picking her up quite so soon. I am so glad she is starting to settle in especially with Gus. She will soon learn that the cats are also part of the household and to be tolerated I'm sure. Good idea to keep her attached to you while learning the house and this way you will be able to contain her and know what is going on. You do realize that we need to see what she looks like now. Would be even better if we could see her in a picture with Gus to get a comparison of her size. I'm sure things will work out wonderfully. You sound like you know what to do and I enjoy reading your updates on her housewarming gifts from Gus.

[Hawkeye]

Wow that was quick, I didn't even get a chance to respond to your question. I would have also said "Go for It" being owned by two myself. I am so happy to hear things are working out for you, Gus and your new "Thief of Hearts". Btw what is her name? I love how you explained Gus taking her around the yard showing her the lay of the land. I would love to see pictures as well.

Good luck with the cat training.

[Lynn in TN]

That is great. I love happy endings. The only thing I like better than happy endings is Happy endings with PICTURES! LOL

[pindrop]

giggling at Lynn too funny girl!

[tomatosandwich]

Congratulations on your new little girl! What a fun thread to read. You weren't really expecting anyone here to talk you out of getting her, were you?!?

[montdoug]

The plot thickens!

I made an interesting discovery today that I believe bodes well for the future. I'd mentioned that "Kat" (short for Kaitlyn, good dog name IMO, one syllable with a sharp sound at the end. Learned that training dogs with my dad as a kid). At any rate Kat went ballistic on one of the cats that sniffed her in her crate. Today I had her in her crate in the car and when Gus jumped in the car close to her crate she did the same thing to him. I put her on the leash at home and walked her close to a cat and no problem, as mentioned Gus is her pal. What I'm thinking is she's protective of her turf when she's in the crate but out of it is a different deal. This might be easier than it first looked, I Hope - I Hope!

I'll probably curse it by saying so but so far no toilet mistakes either.

As to the rapidity of my response there were several aspects. One is I'm weak willed and impulse challenged , the other is my beloved bride isn't so as soon as she said 'It might be nice for Gus to have a friend", I had her in the car on a road-trip before she had time to come out from under the anesthetic as it were.

Photos will be forthcoming but currently my camera is on vacation. Actually the camera isn't on vacation but my son and his family are and the camera went along for the ride as I'm sure the parents out there will understand.

As to coming here to be talked out of adding Kat to the family, my thoughts were 180 out from that. It has more to do with knowing just were to go get that gentle nudge it sometimes takes get the ball rolling. I knew I could count on you guys to be here for me and ya sure didn't let me down.

She sure seems to enjoy just being a dog! I don't believe she's ever been able to just hang around with another dog in the back yard all day chasing rabbits and gophers and napping in the shade under a tree.

[pindrop]

I'm sure Kat is more than happy with this sudden change in her living quarters and by the sounds of it so are you all. I think, all things considered, that the future bodes well for all involved. I like your updates and appreciate the fact that Gus is such a great companion to Kat. Keep up the good work and can't wait for your son to return - along with the camera - for some great shots.

[Kathryn]

Hmmmmm.... is a dog named Kat a little like a boy named Sue?

[Idaho Cairns]

"She sure seems to enjoy just being a dog! I don't believe she's ever been able to just hang around with another dog in the back yard all day chasing rabbits and gophers and napping in the shade under a tree. "

And here is the best part--she is free now, able to be a Cairn Terrier and do Cairn Terrier things. I suspect everything for you, your male dog, and even the cats will be made ever so much better by the addition of the new dog. Cairns need Cairn companionship--their busy minds simply have to have stimulus up to the challenge of their own intelligence. Watch how the dependency on each other for entertainment grows every time they are together. It is fun to watch.

[Lynn in TN]

Understand about the camera. My oldest son leaves with my camera every weekend, and wouldn't ya know it that is when Kelly does the cutest and funniest stuff.

I am so glad they are getting along well. I love to watch them play. I would love to have another one so I could see her play with another cairn. I would probably fracture my ribs(from laughter).

I can't wait for your camera to come home from vacation.

[montdoug]

Hmmmmm.... is a dog named Kat a little like a boy named Sue?

An issue has arisen around that new name coincidentally.

One of my grandsons (9 years old) was over to see the new pup and visit with our Mali Uromastyx lizard "Mickey". Kat was in the crate and one of the cats (with a "c"), got to close and Kat (with a K) let out her usual growl/snarl/bark thing. The grandson got real excited and said "she sounds just like a Tasmanian Devil". Kinda did really, pretty intimidating noise and he would know as he lives on nature programs what with most TV other than educational being blocked to the grand-kids (all 10 of em ) . He then launches into a full on sales campaign that we have to name her "Taz". Grandma was a big help when she says "It is a cute name". I told him I thought it was a boys name but he assures me it's not and asks if we can have a family vote on it? So the dog named Kat might soon be the female named Taz. Oh well, "What's in a name? That which we call a Kat by any other name would be as cute". One syllable, sharp sound to it, happy grand kids, how can we go wrong. She hasn't been with us long enough to attach to the name yet so tonight we have the "once and for all vote" on the little gals name. I'll keep ya posted but for what it's worth we have the most persuasive grand kid in 10 heading up the campaign for name change and the smart money would probably be on him. The dog seems to be fairly ambivalent, she just want's to chase Gus around the back yard.

[Tracy A.]

Yes they do sound like Tasmanian devils... Mett and Bratt sounded that way when they were wee things... they still do...LOL

I would jsut make sure that Gus is treated as first dog, eating first, first attention...etc.

Normally a younger dog will follow an older dogs lead in learning the ropes. Hopefully she will learn that the cats are members of the pack. and remember that humping is about dominance should that start happening...

She will see Gus with Merlin and perhaps a truce will be reached. My two would want to get the kitty... and chaos would happen.... but then my two have had the neighbroorhood cats taunting them for years now. I have a feeling that your new girl might not have had exposure to cats before... so she should have an open mind.

[Hawkeye]

I love reading your updates on Kat or Taz (whichever name she ends up with), sounds like she is making her spot in your home and heart. I can definitely relate to that snarly/growly noise they make I have two that feel the need to put on shows for us in the evening. You will enjoy having the two so much. We added our second terror just over a year ago and they have really come to be true 'best buds' with the younger following his big brother around just to annoy him.

I think I can say this on behave of everyone that we are anxiously awaiting the return of your camera so we can get to see Gus & ??

[montdoug]

Hi guys.

Votes been taken, the female contingent in the family won the day and "Kat" is the new name. In fact as she's outback exploring the new digs if you yell "KAT" real loud she comes near setting a new land speed record as she burns up the lawn to the back deck. She is really settling in and seems amazed that just by walking to the back door and scratching a couple times the door is opened and she is released to run free with her buddy Gus. In fact it was Gus that taught her the door scratching trick. You folks were indeed right, she is learning from him at every turn.

A friend stopped by with a camera and took a photo of her albeit a poor one. He was to close to her trying for a portrait and it's not real flattering. The flash changed colors on her a lot but you'll get the idea. Because of the flash her nose looks a great deal lighter than it is, it's actually as black as Gus's, also it made her look like her eyes are "way" lighter then they are, almost like bunny eyes. In person without a bright flash going off in them they look almost black actually and again as dark as Gus's.

Be that all as it may she is to us at least a real cutie and just sweet as can be, unless your a cat or dog that gets to close to her in her crate !

So here's the first picture of "Kat", the first of many I'm sure. Also one of Gus for a size comparison.

Here's her new best buddy Gus all haired out and ready for winter.

Stopped by my Vet for a quick once over. Gus weighs right at 21.5lbs (big Cairn) but all muscle and she weighs a dainty 12lb 15oz.. I mentioned I thought Gus need to loose a lb or two and the Vet disagreed said he's all muscle from running as much as he does and there's nothing to loose.

One last thing. You guys were right again pertaining to the cats. Last night Kat was laying up against my leg on the couch as I watched TV when a cat jumped up and landed in my lap. Kat lifted her head and I just pet her and told her she was a good dog so she laid her head down and went back to sleep as the cat laid down almost touching her and went to sleep too. A cat running down the hall at a high rate of speed might be a totally different thing however so she's still on a leash at all times in the house.

That's the update. I fear I'm still suffering from what my Mom use to call "new puppy-itis", it was a dread malady I'd catch every time we got a new dog. It would render me to sick for school in the morning but fortunately I'd always recover about an hour after the morning school bell rang. Being retired the morning illness is no longer present but constant fascination with the new addition is still as prevalent as ever.

My thanks to the administrators of this forum for providing such a great site to both learn about and share our excitement over this most wonderful breed of dogs!!

[Hawkeye]

What a great update and thanks for the pictures. Kat & Gus are great looking cairns!! Sounds like Kat has settled right into her new home and is getting along beautifully with Gus and the "other" cats. What does Gus think of his new buddy? He is teaching her a few tricks of the trade already with the door...very clever.

[montdoug]

Gus is a really nice dog and as a pup I spent a great deal of time socializing him with others. As a result he avoids conflict usually unless he really feels something is important at which point he can be a real tiger. With Kat he is so enamored with having a new canine pal 24/7 that he is most tolerant, keeping in mind that for feeding, treats etc they are kept well apart.

Also when ever they are together around us one hand is petting Kat while the other in petting Gus. I have a suspicion however that when all is said and done the Lil Girl is going to rule the roost. She seems to have a lot more invested in defending her turf and he's just use to having lots of friends. A good example of that is when feeding Gus, Merlin his cat bud always walks up and noses Gus off his bowl, Gus just backs up for a bit and lets Merlinhave a few bites before he carefully noses him out of the way and finishes his chow. Gus's upbringing just seems to have left him with a feeling of "no need to worry, there's plenty of love to go round".

On the other hand I observed him absolutely "light up" a friends big Chocolate Lab for unearthing one of Gus's hidden bones while they were playing in the back yard.