Baxter goes bipolar

[jah]

I am new to both Cairn life and forums so please excuse me if I err.

History:

I have a 1 1/2 year old rescue Cairn named Baxter who came to live with me Labor Day weekend. He goes to work with me everyday and when he can not be with me for more than an hour or so he is with his adoring "Grandparents". We are all attending obedience class so he gets the same treatment no matter who he is with.

There are several small "rescue" issues we are dealing with but for the most part he is a sweet loving furchild.

Problem:

Where we are having a big problem is he will go from sweet and gentle to an insane, uncatchable, barking, jumping, snapping wild man with out warning or pattern. If I can catch him I will hold him on his back until he relaxes and or crate him. Then he is fine.

The wild behavior only lasts a few mins. and can happen up to 2-3 times a day, but is unacceptable no matter.

Beyond spraying him in the face with a water does anyone have a suggestion on how to curb these actions?

[Idaho Cairns]

We have rescued two Cairns and both had some initial behavior problems we had to deal with. I tried the water spray in the face with one of them once and never used it again--I had the distinct impression that with that dog, I could have used a fire hose and she would have fought me even harder. I'm not one of those that believes in the use of water in the face as a correction method. Others do and I respect their choice--I just don't care for it.

Couple of things--first, changing environments seem to be difficult for Cairns--we notice that even our dogs we have raised from pups can be a little different in our motorhome and in a campground for the first few days until they adjust to the new surroundings. We have found that time and adjustment are necessary with rescues so your problem may well be short lived. Don't over react or over worry unless the behavior worsens or continues.

Second, I like your method of putting your dog on its back until it relaxes--it is a gentle enough response, doesn't threaten the dog in anyway and gives you the upper hand with the dog. Keep that up for a bit and see if the dog doesn't wean itself from those "moments". Let the little guy adjust to his new surroundings--that has worked for us in the few times we have brought an adult dog into our environment.

Don't "over think" or "over fear" the behavior--it is probably temporary.

Keep us informed about how the dog is doing.

[jah]

Thanks, he does get a lot of changes in environments/locations because he goes every where I go for the most part.

I knew as a rescue Cairn he would be a hand full. He was picked up running wild, put into a foster home, adopted, and returned to rescue in about a months time before he came home with me and I am sure there are issues from that. We have bonded well and I am trying to make his "home" me.

[Idaho Cairns]

The Cairn I referred to with the water spray had been in about five different foster situations and on "death row" in a shelter for behavior problems.

It took some effort but time and patience paid off--she turned into a loving and calm girl. As an aside, she also suffered from undiagnosed diabetes--once we got her stabilized on insulin, her behavior really improved.

Have you had your dog's blood tested? Just a suggestion, sometimes there are medical reasons that cause aberrant behaviors.

Stick with your little guy--no more pillar to post for him! Cairns are worth the effort.

[sanford]

Am I the only one who can't use this technique? I've seen dogs let themselves be put on their backs in order to be calmed down so the owner could take control. When I attempt this with my cairn, he never relaxes, he goes totally ballistic. Whatever behavior I'm trying to correct becomes preferable to the wildy mad, insane, snarling, biting beast he becomes on his back. The more I try and persist, the more he escalates. I've read that cairns have been bred to return pain and not back down. Is that why he does this? I haven't tried water spray, but I will see how that works. The only thing that I found to work is if I embrace him gently and firmly hold him down with his belly, not his back on the floor, while whispering calmly & softly in his ear, "calm down, calm down"... He becomes quiet as if nothing happened! Do any other Cairns freak out at being put on their backs?

[cairnsby3]

I think it depends on the dog. I have one that actually enjoys laying on his back. The puppy classes at the club I belong to teach a relaxed hold, which is with the dog on it's side. I don't think you have to put them on their back.

[Idaho Cairns]

Actually, I don't put them on their back at all. Just lay them down on their side, hand on the neck until they relax and they will relax eventually.

You are right, many dogs don't like being on their back. It is a control thing more than anything else and it doesn't have to be forced in any way--if you watch dog dominance, it is all a matter of getting the other dog to submit.

I sure wouldn't continue a practice that escalates the dog's resistance. Cairns are pretty small, it shouldn't be a problem for most owners.

[avlsarah]

This is something that a lot of dog owners at our park do when their pets have done something unacceptable. Some are really rather forceful, and I can't help but feel that the only thing the dog is getting out of it is learning that their owner may, at any time, violently put them on their backs and keep them there. I have absolutely no interesting in dominating my dog and I really question whether or not its a good idea at all because many of the dogs who get punished like this are repeat offenders.

A squirt of water seem to work well for my Maxwell while laying him down does not - just goes to show that not everything works with every dog, so you have to figure out what will work and go with it. When we are at the park and Maxwell does something unacceptable, I simply pull him aside, make him settle, and release him when he has changed gears. When I have tried to lay him on his side, he squirms and wiggles and refuses to be turned over, so I try to stop the negative behavior, give him something positive that he can do and then offer praise for the good behavior. I think the idea with having the dog lay in such a vulnerable position is an issue of dominance and I'm pretty against using that mentality for training.

Also, I have to really say that using a crate as a punishment for acting crazy may not be the best idea. A crate needs to be like a den, a space where the dog really feels comfortable and wants to be. If its a place that they get put after being told no no bad dog, that's maybe a little less likely.

[Jetti]

Funny thing I found with my Cairn is that there seems to be a difference for him in getting on his back. When I try to lay him on his

back, he tries to fight but when he greets the people he loves and trusts, he gets on his back and wants a belly-rub.

I never put him on his back to punish but he had a sore spot on his belly and I needed him on his back to treat it.That was when I noticed

that he felt so strongly about the different ways to be on his back. Funny little guys, those Cairns......

[jah]

We have started training clssses but have not gotten a track on this wild man activity. The trainer is trying to figure out what else we can do.

He trains well as long as food is the bate, if I don't have food or if there is other activity going on he will not do as told (too nosey ), even at training school.

He has gotten much better on lead walking, it is actually enjoyable to walk with him most of the time. There are still issues with some other dogs and that can cause the wild man issue although he has lots of dog buddies we walk with and had a good play date over the weekend.

He is good 90% of the time. But when he is bad he is still BAD.

Please let me know if anyone has any more ideas as to how to put an end to his bipolar actions.

Thanks

[cairnsby3]

I'm a great believer in clicker training, or shaping. The food shouldn't be bait, it should be the reward that comes "sometimes" for the proper behavior. This doesn't mean you are going to wait until he does the whole behavior that you are trying to train without food, you have to break it down into small steps. There is also a look at that game. You tell the dog to look at that and reward as soon as they look but before they have some wild reaction. Pretty soon they will just glance at the distraction and then look to you for the reward. You have actually gotten the behavior you wanted and the dog thinks it's his idea.

[pkcrossley]

hi jah you are describing very typical cairn behavior. your dog was bred to have a trigger for this "wild man" activity, it was once necessary to save his life in combat with vicious vermin. cairns who find that they can intimidate people with this tantrum or frenzy will let it rip at the first opportunity. but your cairn can learn to control this behavior. he needs to be completely convinced that he is not scaring you and that he cannot get his way with this behavior. there are lots of threads here about devil-dog, frenzy, and other colorful ways of describing this acting out. all the suggestions here are good, and there are others that will allow you to convince your dog to give up this stuff --you don't want it to completely disappear, since it is possible that he could need it one day, but you want him to go from 90 percent good to 99.9 percent good. that is possible, there are many success stories here even with devil-dog types who weren't close to 90 percent to start with.

[jah]

I do not want to make him loose his "fire", I just want it to be controlable. My biggest concern is his biting when he is acting out. He has nipped me pretty good several times and has drawn blood. I stand up to him when he does is behavior.

I got a clicker yesterday and am starting to work with that, my concern is if I do not have the clicker on me he will not follow commands. Is there a basis for that concern?

Thanks,

jah

[pkcrossley]

yep, those bites hurt like crazy. my dog was so fast with that stuff that i never even saw it, i felt a piercing like a knife and looked down and there it was. i would guess that in his youth my dog probably bit me three or four times, and at lest once drew blood. each time it happened he looked as surprised as i was, and very sorry. it took us a while to get the frenzies under control.

remember that he is working against his instincts in getting his under control. he will work on it to please you. you should see steady improvement, but there will be steps backward along with the steps forward.

there are many, many threads here about this problem. when i say it is "typical" behavior i mean not only that it is instinctive, but that it is probably the most common problem that cairn owners have to work on --followed by obsessive barking, excessive energy, and a general lack of interest in following commands without a bribe. and cairn owners "typically" succeed in dealing with this problem.

standing up to him is really important. do not allow him to suspect that he can intimidate you, or it will take away his incentive to civilize himself. if he looks sorry after he has bitten you, then you have a leg up. if not, make sure he knows that he has hurt you. puppies and young dogs play rough and don't necessarily know that it hurts people a lot to get bitten. some people here have had to chew a lot of scenery to act out the pain for their dog. once you have made it clear that it hurts to be bitten, demonstrate your displeasure. yelling, lecturing, walking away from the dog (or giving him a time-out in a crate or a safe room) are among the successful strategies. getting physical with the dog never works. it conveys all the wrong messages, and builds up resentment in the dog. cairns will not tolerate being bullied (in their view).

i am not a very brave person, and it was hard for me to make myself comfortable enough with these frenzies that i could convince my dog that he could not influence me with this behavior. i kept him in a harness and a short leash for a few weeks and any time he pitched a fit i just lifted him in the air and took him to his safe room for a time out. you might also invest in a pair of thick gloves, or learn techniques to restrain your dog (that takes real training). however you choose to give yourself peace of mind and leverage with your dog, it is important that your dog is absolutely convinced, and very quickly, that frenzies cannot gain him any advantage at all. cairns don't waste time on useless behaviors, and they respect people who stand up to them. the two of you will probably progress very quickly.

[cairnsby3]

The clicker is more to help Baxter be a thinking dog, and think about doing things to please you. As he learns how fun it is to please you, he will also learn how it's no fun to displease you and your bond will become stronger. As you progress in your clicker training, you can substitute a word like "yes" for the reward click and that you have with you all the time.

[jah]

Thank you for the help and encouragement. I have seen an improvement in him in the 3 months he has lived with me. He still does the wild man thing, he has bitten me several times it the past couple of weeks. Once during "take it leave it" training and also when I was cleaning up a mess of string off of the floor when he distroyed a peice of rope (he should not have gotten) among others. He is a work in progress that I do not intend to give up on.

Not knowing how he was treated in this first year and a half is tough. I think he may have been hit for punishment, when I took my house slipper from him and was scolding him with it in my hand he cowered in the corner.

Please do not think I am crazy for this next question, but does your Cairn have a favorite colour? Baxter seems to gravitate to blue. he plays only with his blue toys, they are the only ones he will get out of his toy box and bring to me. If I throw his yellow ball he will get his blue one even though they are the same. Not really important in the scheme of things but it is curious.

[beccadiane374]

Please do not think I am crazy for this next question, but does your Cairn have a favorite colour? Baxter seems to gravitate to blue. he plays only with his blue toys, they are the only ones he will get out of his toy box and bring to me. If I throw his yellow ball he will get his blue one even though they are the same. Not really important in the scheme of things but it is curious.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but dogs cannot see all colors & I believe it's been proven or tested or something & blues & purples are on the color scale that they can see. Having said that, I haven't necessarily noticed Tanner gravitating towards any particular color of toy...he just loves balls, all balls, all sizes, all colors, the more the merrier.

[pkcrossley]

yes, that's right, dogs are red/green color blind. they see yellow and blue and, of course, purple looks blue to them since they cannot see the red. my dog redmon has toys of all colors but his favorite is a blue bouncing ball we call "blue." what i notice is not so much preference as the fact that when we throw his red balls in the yard he cannot see them once they stop moving. but he can always see "blue," so it is a bit more fun for him. more typical behavior from baxter!

[jah]

Baxter is still a work in progress. He still has issues with other dogs at times but overall he is adjusting. He passed his first training class and is in the next level. He still goes crazy at times but he is a really sweet loving dog. He has calmed down a great deal, has adapted well to being in the office with me. He still has crazy moments but is doing much better.

[Nikki]

that great that he is improving! i just read about the dogs seeing color thing....this shows you the spectrum of what they can see article

[biochembelle]

Kenna likes bright yellow (think tennis ball), Whoody likes white, and Keiko the cat favors red. I swear it. I know cats aren't supposed to be able to see red, so maybe it's the smell of red dye, but Keiko always goes for a red toy over any other color.